Leona--here's what most people missed.

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PeonToePolisher

Junior Member

10-22-2011

Leona is 3rd in my list of preferred champions. She may be a difficult champion to play, she is melee and that makes it harder to farm safe. Good players will know however that last hitting, and substituting with abilities when appropriate, makes almost anyone able to farm, certainly Leona. She is Incredibly strong early game though, her combo on lvl 4 with 2 points in eclipse, hurts. You need an ally to trigger those sunlight procs. Here Q skill has a 3 quick hit function as opposed to 2 hits with other similar skills, Attack-Bash-Attack.

I see that in this thread people argue for what the best damage build with Leona is and there are thoughts on other items to get that CDR low. I do not see that Leonas strength lies in improving damage through AP or AD, I consider her most useful with a build of pure defense, the damage that she has naturally and sunlight will have to do, its your ally's that do the rest. when she gets tanked up she can roam around in battle defending ally´s and chasing down prey.

As for the CDR i go for frozen heart blue elixir and the occasional blue buff.


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MBirk

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeonToePolisher View Post
Leona is 3rd in my list of preferred champions. She may be a difficult champion to play, she is melee and that makes it harder to farm safe. Good players will know however that last hitting, and substituting with abilities when appropriate, makes almost anyone able to farm, certainly Leona. She is Incredibly strong early game though, her combo on lvl 4 with 2 points in eclipse, hurts. You need an ally to trigger those sunlight procs. Here Q skill has a 3 quick hit function as opposed to 2 hits with other similar skills, Attack-Bash-Attack.

I see that in this thread people argue for what the best damage build with Leona is and there are thoughts on other items to get that CDR low. I do not see that Leonas strength lies in improving damage through AP or AD, I consider her most useful with a build of pure defense, the damage that she has naturally and sunlight will have to do, its your ally's that do the rest. when she gets tanked up she can roam around in battle defending ally´s and chasing down prey.

As for the CDR i go for frozen heart blue elixir and the occasional blue buff.
The problem with going pure tank is she is completely ignorable. And her CC isn't strong enough to stop a team from just running past her and killing your support/carries/ap. THAT is why we talk about damage on her. So that after she uses her CC, she applies enough damage to be a threat.
If you want someone that is just disruption/initiation, you are better served with other tanks still, with stronger CC. Cho, Rammus, trundle, blitz, etc.

A living Leona, after the rest of your team is dead, is pretty useless.


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MBirk

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverLaxx View Post
I don't see how two stuns and free 70 AR/MR for 6 seconds could possibly be considered "weak mitigation".
Graves have 40/40, annie has a stun and 50/50 that lasts 13s. Taric has 60ar all the time.
Those are champs no one considers tanks.
70/70 for 6s is pretty low for a tank mit. Especially when you consider you are tasked to activate it prior to engaging, wasting 1-2 seconds of it. So it tends to either last 4s of a fight, or you get inited on, and don't have it up at all. again, most tanks have a passive mit, making getting caught nearly impossible.
Two short duration effectively single target stuns *aoe for the aoe is way too small to actually catch more then 1", also adds into this. Major aoe disrupt can make up for it. Cho doesn't have any passive mit, just hp boost. Which is survival of course. Amunu's passive mit is pretty weak. but massive aoe CC makes up for it.
This is why Leona is godmode 1-3 man fights. Her single target CC, and mit is huge. But she utterly fails at 5v5. She is CCable during her E dive.

Typical Leona init vs any competent team.
Activate W. 1 s burned, get position, E dive. 2s on W. Hit target, dive in. Get stunned or Silenced during dive. Be unable to ult or Q for 3 seconds. W drops before the stun/silence wears off. If you are alive, you can now ult, vs targets that are now spread out, killing your team, if they didnt kill you. (They probably killed you)

She can counter initiate, or duo. But leading with her is a terrible idea. She is targetable and CCable during her E. As well as her W is not enough mit to tank 5 people. And leading with R vs a competent team. 1s delay. This is not rupture that you can try again 6s later. An ult that is effectively a 1.5s slow vs 1 target is terrible. (Again, yes you can use it on a target in a 2v2 situation where you hit them with Q first. or in a team fight, where you let them init, or someone else on your team did, and you drop it mid confusion. But leading with it, does not work vs anyone not terrible, nor does 5 man init with it, as you should be CC'd)


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StardustxDragon

Senior Member

10-22-2011

no she best as support just get a couple gp5 items philo hog merc trends maybe and finish aegis or reverie and just buy lot of wards maybe an oracle


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MBirk

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Testing out will on her, I also got lichbane and rylais.

Major problem is of course gold. +/-.
Ap increases her farm way more then sheen/tank/cdr.
When W kills a creepwave outright, it really speeds things up alot.

Will's leach wasn't nearly enough to make use off. I get more hp/5 with my typical tanky build. And it also, doesn't provide max hp.

Lichbane is significantly weaker then sheen/triforce until 150ap. cost investment here is just too much.

Ryalis was **** good. Max hp. Nice slows on aoes, and Q.

Which brings up why Triforce is so good. It is everything. Its not just AD. Its hp, its slow on hit, its ias/ad, and its burst damage applied to towers, and single target, aiding in providing assists.
A Leona burst with triforce is, 232 E, 272W, 189q+139aa+163(triforce)=491=995 on 4s, 8s, and 5s cd's
+374R=1369 with ult. That is without additional AA's. And sets up a teammate greatly.
A 500 damage Q to towers, and players every 4seconds. THAT is why people get triforce on her. AND it slows, and gives you hp, and increases your move speed, letting you maneuver mid fight better.


I'm considering how I could get a frozen mallet or ryalis into my typical builds with her. The main issue I'm seeing is I just can't afford all these things she "needs".

Shurs, HoG, wits end/sheen, GS, FM maybe.


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PeonToePolisher

Junior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBirk View Post
The problem with going pure tank is she is completely ignorable. And her CC isn't strong enough to stop a team from just running past her and killing your support/carries/ap. THAT is why we talk about damage on her. So that after she uses her CC, she applies enough damage to be a threat.
If you want someone that is just disruption/initiation, you are better served with other tanks still, with stronger CC. Cho, Rammus, trundle, blitz, etc.

A living Leona, after the rest of your team is dead, is pretty useless.

I have looked at your reasoning and I need to defend my build on Leona. It is my build but I also intend it as a recommendation. The only strain of reasoning from you that I can support is that "A living Leona, after the rest of your team is dead, is pretty useless" but for such a hypothetical situation i'm sure there are many many factor to consider prior to its occurrence furthermore what does their team look like when your team is dead and are you then still useless?

That Leona is completely ignorable when you go full support is a very general, not to mention strong, claim that I think is simply false. Perhaps you want to give some examples and/or additional reason should want to explain further on this point. To articulate things; her CC consists of 1 stun + 1stun or 80%slow + a mini ensnare, and so I must ask; why is her CC not strong enough to stop someone running past you?
As I suggested in my previous post, with some emphasis on sunlight, she does have some damage still giving her threat that certainly is not ignorable.
Rammus and, I guess also, a skilled blitz, arguably, are on a comparable level of CC as to Leona. Trundle and Cho however are not as strong CC characters as Leona.

The fact that discussions about building a damage Leona in terms of AD and AP is something I appreciate, its nice to see that people experiment with builds as I have done with her as well.

I have developed a bias to play Leona as a tank because through my experience I feel I gain the most out of her that way. I am simply adding another alternative to play Leona slightly outside the discussed scope of Items in post above.

Perhaps others have also tried this build, perhaps now others will, perhaps you come to see the the advantages of this build.
In terms of the opportunity costs of the item builds suggested and this build, perhaps you draw the same conclusion as I have.


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MBirk

Senior Member

10-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeonToePolisher View Post
I have looked at your reasoning and I need to defend my build on Leona. It is my build but I also intend it as a recommendation. The only strain of reasoning from you that I can support is that "A living Leona, after the rest of your team is dead, is pretty useless" but for such a hypothetical situation i'm sure there are many many factor to consider prior to its occurrence furthermore what does their team look like when your team is dead and are you then still useless?

That Leona is completely ignorable when you go full support is a very general, not to mention strong, claim that I think is simply false. Perhaps you want to give some examples and/or additional reason should want to explain further on this point. To articulate things; her CC consists of 1 stun + 1stun or 80%slow + a mini ensnare, and so I must ask; why is her CC not strong enough to stop someone running past you?
As I suggested in my previous post, with some emphasis on sunlight, she does have some damage still giving her threat that certainly is not ignorable.
Rammus and, I guess also, a skilled blitz, arguably, are on a comparable level of CC as to Leona. Trundle and Cho however are not as strong CC characters as Leona.

The fact that discussions about building a damage Leona in terms of AD and AP is something I appreciate, its nice to see that people experiment with builds as I have done with her as well.

I have developed a bias to play Leona as a tank because through my experience I feel I gain the most out of her that way. I am simply adding another alternative to play Leona slightly outside the discussed scope of Items in post above.

Perhaps others have also tried this build, perhaps now others will, perhaps you come to see the the advantages of this build.
In terms of the opportunity costs of the item builds suggested and this build, perhaps you draw the same conclusion as I have.
I mained cho before Leona came out. And I enjoy her so I play her too.
But cho DESTROYS Leona in CC. And damage... And survival. and versatility. Solo top, solo mid, jungle, no problem. Bot with support can do too.
My 6s cd rupture on cho is her ult. Except on cho I can get 12k g worth of items so have 200 ap on top of 200/200 mr/ar too.

AoE cc is much much stronger then single target. Nevermind his aoe silence is 3seconds long. That alone is greater then all her CC combined.
And that is the problem with her, and why she is NOT strong at CC, and why she can be ignored, and why she is not good at initiation. its all single target. Her ults radius is too small, and there is the delay making it avoidable, so it's not effective as an aoe stun. Hell, Tibbers+stun is instant, hence superior. In practice her ult is single target CC. While the aoe is large enough for damage purposes to hit more then one.
Which is one of my main issues with her, and complaints on the feedback forums. her ult is very weak. Cho's rupture is stronger in practice. Better scaling, shorter cd, and longer CC. (Also less visible.) Instant+ aoe blind on top of the slow would fix it, and frankly fix her. As a stronger aoe CC would let her init much more safely.

Now, it may sound like I am coming down on her too hard. But in order to understand how to play her well, you need to understand exactly where she stands. What she can and can't do.
I have tried aura support Leona. I came up with the idea a while back even. Thinking about will, starcks, FH, Aegis. I considered the point, that she doesn't scale well, and is ignorable, and therefor, if you build her with auras, just being alive she is a value to the team.
Think about it, build those aura items, get oracles. Play back field counter Carry. Would work great on a team comp. Solo que it's weak as the general public expect her to be a tank, and initiate wrongly. Also, its a bit expensive.

which leads into another major issue with Support Leona. A typical support doesn't need much to be effective. Leona as a melee tanky support, does.
That WotA would be 10x more effective on soraka, lux, sona, or karma. Leona has a very delicate balance of needing more hp, ar, mr, and some damage to stay relevant in a fight as the game moves on. As 0cs support, you will fall behind in exp not getting last hits. A TANK with -3-4 levels is in bad shape. The jungle or solo top tank on the other team will be 16 to your 10-12. That alone is yet another reason why they CAN init, and you can't late game as a Leona. The best way to play her is as support yes. Its sort of a new role, offensive support. Nunu I suppose is the same. Make sure someone else is your real tank. They don't need a hard mega CC though. Nasus, trundle, etc work fine. You hang back, like a typical support. A taric for example. And you assist your carry in two ways. 1. lock down people they are trying to kill, and 2. Make sure no one touches them. A katarina shunpos onto your carry. You can't miss your ult if you drop it own your team. It is very easy to predict where the other team is going to be, when they are diving on your team.


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