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Leona--here's what most people missed.

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Xocolatl

Recruiter

10-21-2011

Here are the charges: AP Leona has bad CC, and CDR Leona has low damage.
But I have found the perfect way to combine them and make her one hell of a b****h to deal with.

Will of The Ancients + Frozen Heart. Be prepared to be amazed.

At 40%CDR, Leona basically has her Eclipse buff up 70% of the time.
I'm just grabbing champions randomly here, so here's a small rundown on your favorite tanks:

Amumu - doesn't have a defensive CD
Alistar - Unbreakable Will: Ult...do I even have to bring it up?
Gragas - Drunken Rage: 18% dmg reduction, 100% up time
Leona - Eclipse: up to 6sec of 70MR/AR, 14sec base, up to 70%
Maokai - Vengeful Maelstrom: Ult, about 25% up time
Rammus - DBC: 150MR/AR, roughly 40%


Now, it's not just total up-time, but also how much vulnerable gap you have. Imagine that you're a boss in old platformers. You can have a period of invulnerability, and then be killable for 8 seconds. Or alternatively, you have be nearly invulnerable with only 2 seconds of vulnerability at a time. The first represents Rammus, while the second is Leona.

Here's for the damage section.
I have seen a lot of Leona builds, most incorporating Sheen->Trinity Force for damage. Personally, I find WotA to be the magic bullet. Why? Because it is incredibly cheap, boosts her damage, AND survivability by loads. Low on HP? Walk into a minion group, Eclipse, Zenith Blade. Now blink quickly, and realize you just gained half of your HP back. Pretty nifty, eh? Yeah, that's called being nearly invincible as long as you remain in a fight.
What's even better is that she gets a massive damage boost from it too.

With the survivability and utility section taken cared off, it frees up a lot of item slots to play with. I think you guys can probably handle it from here on.


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Daerkannon

Senior Member

10-21-2011

I admit I haven't tried WotA on her yet, but it's an intriguing idea. The only problem I forsee is getting enough cash to reasonably get it and the tanking items you need for the stage of the game you're going to be in by the time you do get a WotA.

Personally I've been going with Frozen Heart, Omen and Reverie to hit that 40% CDR.


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DarkenDragon

Senior Member

10-21-2011

just a little tid bit of information to add. her passive also does magic damage, so getting will of the ancients also helps your team mates since the damage done by your passive is considered to be magic damage dealt by your allies thus heals them (or so I was told)

what I always wanted to try is to get will of the ancients + abyssal scepter as AP items to help her farm well. which also will help allies since the magic resistance reduction from the abyssal will help your passive deal more damage.

but then her starting farm is fairly weak and I find it hard to build up the cash for these items to make it helpful for early game. if anyone knows a solution to this delima I would love to hear it


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Xocolatl

Recruiter

10-21-2011

I would recommend going CDR runes (blues and quints), but grab the mana->regen mastery so that you are pushing that 40% boundary with just FH (and Glacial Shield alone would provide plenty of CDR early game).

Unless you're fighting Olaf or Irelia (screw Vayne..her true damage is pathetic), this build offers plenty of tanking power due to Eclipse alone.
I roll with Mana Saphire, which grants me a few extra HP5. Turn that into Glacial Shield, get Merc Treads for your CDR, then make Hextech. Finish up FH, get 1 HP item of choice, then finish up WotA. So long as you get spellvamp by mid game, you will have amazing time in team fights.

Farming can certainly be difficult. I dunno...I've just been rolling with **** farmers for so long (rammus and blitz) so I'm used to it, so long as my carry is willing to toss me some gold.


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ComradeHX

Senior Member

10-21-2011

The problem is that most of Leona's spells (3 of them) do AOE damage, and not very much.

Therefore expecting to heal a lot off her spells would be impossible unless you have a lot higher AP(which is still not good enough due to Leona's subpar ratio, better off with AP rammus...his ult alone has higher AP ratio than Leona).

With that said, WitA on Rammus would be a great idea.


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Catters

Senior Member

10-21-2011

My problem with AP on Leona is thus:

Leona's AP ratios are 0.3, 0.4, 0.4, and 0.8, respectively. Of these skills, three of them can hit up to 5 people. Let's assume on average they hit 3 people. So the AP ratios are 0.3, 1.2, 1.2, and 2.4. Burst sounds pretty good on paper, no? Unfortunately, a tank needs more than burst to become a threat worth attacking. Let's look at her DPS.

Leona's cooldowns for her abilities are, at max level, 7, 14, 9, and 60 seconds. We shall even assume that she has 40% CDR: 4.2, 8.4, 5.4, 36. Since we are looking for DPS, adding in the ultimate with such a long cooldown is silly. We remove that, leaving us with the ability AP ratios, 0.3, 1.2, 1.2, and the cooldowns, 4.2, 8.4, 5.4. Divide each AP ratio by the cooldown to figure out the AP DPS. Remember, tanks with burst do not present a threat and therefore are not going to be targeted by the enemy.

0.3/4.2 = 0.07
1.2/8.4 = 0.14
1.2/5.4 = 0.22

Add these up and your AP DPS turns out to be 0.43. That is HORRIBLE. I mean truly, stupendously horrid.

Let us compare this with building an AD item, like Trinity Force, on Leona. Again, we assume maximum base AS (no items other than Trinity). 1.118 base AS is actually pretty good at level 18. Increased by +30% with Trinity, and her total AS turns out to be 1.4534. Multiply this by her autoattack ratio (1 to 1 with AD), and your AD DPS, Sheen not included, is 1.45.

This is thricefold better than building AP on Leona.

Build AD Leona.

http://lolnoelo.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/the-leona-debate-tank-ap-or-ad/


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Daerkannon

Senior Member

10-21-2011

Damage is never going to be the source of Leona's threat. I don't know why people keep trying to make it that way. Leona's threat is spreading her stuns and sunlight around. Good CDR helps with this more than AD or AP.


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shiredragon

Senior Member

10-21-2011

Quote:
DarkenDragon:
just a little tid bit of information to add. her passive also does magic damage, so getting will of the ancients also helps your team mates since the damage done by your passive is considered to be magic damage dealt by your allies thus heals them (or so I was told)

what I always wanted to try is to get will of the ancients + abyssal scepter as AP items to help her farm well. which also will help allies since the magic resistance reduction from the abyssal will help your passive deal more damage.

but then her starting farm is fairly weak and I find it hard to build up the cash for these items to make it helpful for early game. if anyone knows a solution to this delima I would love to hear it


Gp10 items.
I usually rush Phil - boots lvl 1- then HoG. After that I break into a normal build.
Also practice last hitting techniques:
-Learn to get near minions then last hit when they have low HP.
-If you have extra mana and no need of CDs, use them to last hit more minions.
-Use eclipse to kill a lot of minions at once (auto attack them to half then pop elcipse to kill all the casters at once. )


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MBirk

Senior Member

10-21-2011

wota gives 80 ap and 25% spell vamp.
Eclipses gets .4 ap. +32 damage from will. 292 damage aoe.
25% of 292=73 aoe =33% of that 25%.=24 hp

Will would heal you for 24 hp per target with eclipse. A mnion wave of 6 would give 144 hp back. that is frankly kindof terrible.

I'm not sure how it will effect shield of daybreak exactly honestly. Just the magic portion?
Shield of daybreak resets aa, so it effectively scales 1:1 with AD. That is very important to note with her.


It IS an aura item, and fairly cheap. A support leona would do well with it, or starks with AD team. Just stay alive, and provide auras to team.


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Eledhan

Senior Member

10-21-2011

Quote:
****DirtyCat:


[edited out for space purposes]

Build AD Leona.

http://lolnoelo.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/the-leona-debate-tank-ap-or-ad/


Although your math is correct (DPS calculations), I feel your assumptions are flawed...

For example...in a typical fight, I don't think you can assume that Leona will be auto attacking 100% of the time at full AS rate. In addition, her AP ratios grant her damage RIGHT NOW whereas an AD build takes time to build up damage in order to adequately compare the two.

Remember, Leona is an initiator and supporter (via CC and team-based AoE passive), locking down 1+ targets with ult and then hopefully stunning the biggest threat to her team with her shield. I don't think you can discount the ult in a team fight, because that's where Leona shines...that and long-term laning engagements where CD's aren't as important.

So...in a laning situation, she needs to be able to initiate, control, and burst. In a team fight situation, she needs to do the exact same things...The question you should be asking is...how long does an AD build take to catch back up to the burst damage from AP Leona?

See below!

Quote:

Single Target AP Burst = 0.3 + 0.4 + 0.4 + 0.8 = 1.9
AoE AP Burst (2 Targets) = 0.3 + 0.8 + 0.8 + 1.6 = 3.5
AoE AP Burst (3 Targets) = 0.3 + 1.2 + 1.2 + 2.4 = 5.1

AD Ratio per attack = 1.0

Number seconds for AD to catch up to AP in terms of total damage dealt for each number of targets (assume 1.0 AS):

Single target = 1.9
2 Targets = 3.5
3 Targets = 5.1

Now you must take into consideration the cost-effectiveness of the two stats...the cost per AP is about 21 and AD is about 39 (these are the average gold/stat of the basic tier items). 39 / 21 = 1.85 cost factor. If you spend the same amount on AD as you do AP, you can get roughly 1.85 AP for each point of AD. So...now you need to multiply this factor times the AP ratio to account for the better cost-efficiency by going with AP...

Now you get the following AP ratios after accounting for cost of stats:

Single Target = 3.5
2 Targets = 6.5
3 Targets = 9.4

So...

During the laning phase, you will rarely get into a position where you hit only 1 target...but if you do, it's okay because you'd have to auto attack for 3.5 seconds before you could deal the same amount of damage to the target...that's rare for lane skirmishes prior to team fights. And if you are able to hit both targets, I can guarantee you won't be able to auto attack for 6.5 straight seconds...someone will flash or be dead, therefore wasting the AD you bought.

In team fights, however, her first combo using AP will account for 9.4 seconds of auto attacking with AD in order to catch up in terms of cost-effective damage output. This means all 3 of her non-ult skills are coming off CD again, allowing her to use them at least one more time. As a matter of fact...during the 9.4 seconds, she gets the following additional ability uses...

Q x 2 (0.6 single target ratio)
W x 1 (1.2 triple target ratio)
E x 1 (1.2 triple target ratio)

Granting a combined AP Ratio of 3.2 within the original timeframe of 9.4 seconds of auto attacking. Now she has 12.6 AP ratio...

Using a insanely high margin of error of 20%, that's 10.1 seconds of auto attacking to compare the two in terms of damage output. I'm sorry, but that simply does not seem like a hands-down decision to go with AD.


Now...in reference to the OP's point, the above analysis makes going tanky AP items extremely attractive all of a sudden. Especially if you can obtain CDR. But even without CDR, Leona would have to auto attack for 9.4 seconds before she deals the same amount of damage as an AP build would in a team fight...

I am by no means supporting AP over AD (or any build over another), I'm just pointing out that it's not nearly as easy a decision as you let on. There are more things than damage to consider between the two builds (such as the ability to obtain massive ARM, MR, and HP with AP builds compared to AD builds), and the damage component is only one part of that.


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