Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Thornmail Counter Lifesteal?

12
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Grixis Spartacus

Junior Member

10-20-2011

While the value lifesteal is a product of the assaulting champion's dmg, so too is the dmg they receive from thornmail (30%). Lifesteal items are also relatively expensive, while thornmail is only 2k. I play Irelia on Dominion as a tanky dps and am beginning to make thornmail a staple to effectively compliment my atmogs. Would you recommend thornmail for other tanky dps, such as Riven and Xin, ect... as a great counter to lifesteal?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SirCumference

Member

10-20-2011

It's important if you're trying to 1v1 an auto attack type character with some lifesteal. Because all your hp is just going to provide them with their own HP unless you can stop lifesteal. Thornmail is much more effective than ignite for this unless they have an ungodly amount of lifesteal.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DarkenDragon

Senior Member

10-20-2011

thornmail and life steal are not counters to each other. a counter would mean that one will beat the other in all situation. instead think of it as opposites that negate each other. though thornmail will have more going for it than lifesteal would.

lifesteal will calculate how much it heals you by the damage you do after armor and reductions are applied while thornmail's damage is calculated before armor and reductions are applied. thus you will need more lifesteal percentage than thornmail's percentage to totally negate each other.

so if someone has thornmail, its a good idea to get life steal, and if someone has life steal, its a good idea to get thornmail. though this is just a rule of thumb and in certain situations something else might be better than thornmail.

also the damage returned is only calculated on the physical damage of an auto attack, so champions who deal on hit damage will have an advantage on you, for example jax and akali, since part of their auto attack is magical, you'll only return part of the damage dealt, thus thornmail would not be a great choice (still a viable choice, but not the best choice)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Levj

Senior Member

10-20-2011

There is one more factor in this equation that some might be forgetting. On hand you have thornmail while on the other side of the balance you have lifesteal AND magic resist.

If you get some MR it reduces the thorn mail damage which helps life steal over come it. Of course one could also point out that a champ with thorn mail could get ignite/exhaust and executioners calling to counter life steal.

LoL has lots of counters heh...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kritara

Senior Member

10-20-2011

I agree with Levrof's statement the amount of Lifesteal alone to counter Thornmail is absurd especially if they stack even more armor ontop of that. Having a decent combination of life steal + magic resist can make a difference as well has having a healthy...health pool that the loss of life in combination with enemy teammate damage plus the self damage inflicted by the thornmeail wearer......

Honestly picking your targets wisely is always the cheapest solution =D


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ComradeHX

Senior Member

10-20-2011

Quote:
Kritara:

Honestly picking your targets wisely is always the cheapest solution =D

AP rammus with thornmail ball + curl + taunt.

DPS yi kills himself in 3 seconds.

*plays trololol song*


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kritara

Senior Member

10-20-2011

Fine fine, not only must you pick your target's wisely you must know when to engage. Happy now?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

bylobog44

Senior Member

10-20-2011

Actually, I think the equation is Thornmail vs. Lifesteal + ArPen + MR.

Thornmail returns 30% of damage (prior to mitigation) as magic damage.

Lifesteal (Bloodthirster fully stacked) returns as HP 25% of damage (after armor mitigation).

How much of Thornmail's damage does lifesteal counter? Combined with your base MR, most of it. But to fully mitigate Thornmail, you probably need some ArPen and more MR.

Examples (assumes your champion has 30 base MR at level 18 and your opponent has 75 base armor at level 18):
With a Bloodthirster (100 AD + 25% lifesteal)
Say you have 100 base damage + 100 bonus AD from BT. Thornmail will hit you with 60 magic damage. Accounting for your 30 base MR, you take 60 * [1 - (30 / 130)] = 46 damage from TM (before lifesteal).

Your target has 175 (75 base + 100 from TM) armor or 64% mitigation. This means you only do 72 damage to him. 200 * [1 - (175 / 275)] = 72

You get 25% of this back as lifesteal (18Hp) so total damage to you is 46 - 18 = 28

So, if my calcs are correct, with only 25% lifesteal, for 200 AD you would do 72 damage to your enemy and take 28 damage yourself.

With Merc Treads (30 MR) and Last Whisper (40 AD, 40% ArPen, no lifesteal):

  • 140 AD * [1 - (105/205)] = 68 damage to enemy.
  • (.3 * 140) = 42 * [1 - (60/160)] = 26 damage returned.
Almost the same as the lifesteal example.

With Bloodthirster (100 AD, 25% Lifesteal) , LastWhisper (40 AD, 40% ArPen) and Merc Treads (+30 MR):
  • 240 * [1-(105/205) = 117 damage to enemy.
  • (.3 * 240) = 72 * [1 - (60/160)] = 45 - (29 lifesteal) = 16 damage returned.

So you can see why Thornmail is so efficient. To fully (mostly) mitigate a 2000g item, takes 6500g worth of offensive items (but many of which AD carrys would have anyways).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PhrycePhyre

Senior Member

10-20-2011

But then you get another.
But seriously, Get an atmogs, then by the time they kill you, you've killed them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

PeonToePolisher

Junior Member

10-21-2011

The damage return from thornmail is a bonus, but the real strength of thormail is the 100 AR for a low cost. If your hp is > 1370 then a thornmail will add more initial survivability than warmogs armor vs AD champions. Although warmogs gives hp regen as well the cost is TM2000 vs WM3000. When your hp gets to 2000 or even 3000 then thornmail adds a lot of extra "hits until death" value compared with more hp items.

If you make game decisions based on trying to counter life steal you may loose out on more beneficial items you could have got instead. I get thornmail with some champions but then because I want survivability vs AD champions and not to counter life steal.

Life steal makes champions able to fight longer while not returning to base, this to a very lesser extent in the early game as pots give quicker and safe hp. The life stealing champions, once with some damage, can and will target minions and jungle creeps in heal on.

Perhaps the counter to life steal is to knock the lifesteal-champion on the head really hard so they do not get up. XD


12