Dominion sympathizes for losing teams. Rubberbanding, artificial "close games", etc.

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Brackhar

Features Designer

10-13-2011
2 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeDuo View Post
Did you consider disabling the bonus/penality while the team that's behind in Nexus health is ahead in point controlled?
It's very bad when one team has 3-5 points yet much shorter respawn times, it causes the exact opposite of what the system is supposed to create.
We did not, no. May not be a bad approach, but at least initially we didn't want the respawn times to be varying wildly from moment to moment.


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XaoGarrent

Senior Member

10-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
To be clear, these systems aren't actually intended to be "catch-up" mechanics, and if they've fallen too far on that side of things then we need to ratchet them back. What they are intended to do is counter-balance some of the design implications of making a very small sized map. When making Dominion we quickly found that attritional style gameplay, the need to go back to base and the travel time associated with reaching a point again, was a very important factor to allowing back and forth gameplay from both teams. You see this on Summoner's Rift when you look at how champions move and react to one another as people die and fights are resolved. At the same time we also found that a small map was needed to have the battles be engaging and to get the proper mixture of allowing for back caps while also giving people time to respond.

By shrinking the map size we reduced the attritional gameplay that's core to the game balance, and so we needed to think of another way to create that sense of "travel time" that allows for a good back and forth. Adjusting the respawn timers seemed the best way to create this type of gameplay. We considered basing the adjustments off of the number of points a team controlled at any given time, but we scrapped that idea as it then felt punishing to ever get more than 3 points and led to stale gameplay. Basing it off of the aggregate score was less penalizing tactically and overall a better experience.

As an analogy to SR, think of it like the respawn adjustments are simulating how far into enemy territory your 5-man group is running. The closer to the enemy base you are the more likely you are to win the game, but the more punishing dying can be in terms of letting the opposing team rebound.

This is a main area of our design focus right now to tune this properly as I agree it's a very sensitive subject, and the more feedback that you guys can give us over the coming patches will help us guide it in the right way. Definitely expect continual changes on this topic.
Have you considered basing it partially on both, so neither thing has too much of a sole impact on the respawns?

One of the issues that currently exists, is that if you stomp hard enough, the respawn time difference between teams gets large enough that they can 5 cap you by zerging if they have champs that excel in sheer force, or a strong late game setup that manages to get going. Often times as the spawns get closer together, you start rolling again since it was the enemy team's only saving grace, but in some cases its so late in the game when it happens the window of opportunity to regain the ground you lost is too small.

This would also help to mitigate this effect somewhat as if the losing team were to cap 3+ points the respawns would get closer together making it more risky to keep throwing bodies at the enemy.

I actually like it as a comeback mechanic, and think it should stay as one just for the sake of giving the underdog team a chance to redeem themselves and regroup, but it does need some more adjustments.

EDIT: ****it, I managed to miss JoeDuo's post which is basically suggesting the same thing I am. Well, it's good to know this sort of idea hadn't been thrown out already for some reason.


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logg

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Senior Member

10-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamCuri View Post
I don't see a problem with a game where you have to work together for the entirety of the game, and any slip-ups are emphasized for the enemy to take advantage of.

The game's rubberband effect doesn't cause the losing team to gain an advantage.
A lot of teams that start out ahead just stop pulling as hard as they had in the early game; they go "gg" when there's a 300 point lead and start making mistakes or goofing off.


The game rewards people who can work together seriously for the full 20 minutes, and DOMINATE.

Teams that start relaxing when the enemy nexus is below 50 points, are effectively costing themselves the game. It's not really the game's mechanics causing the rubberband effect - It's players like the OP misunderstanding how the game is set up.


There's always a chance the enemy can come back - So don't relax, and hold your points seriously until the enemy Nexus is at "0". Not "50", not "10", not even "1" - Until it's "0", zero, ziltch, the end.
There are games happening everyday where people lose while the enemy Nexus is below 5 points, because they relaxed before it was over, and the enemy pounced.

It's never over until its over.



If you think this sort of game is bad - You're weak.
A truly tough game is one that makes you try your hardest, from start to finish.

Summoner's Rift is easy-mode. You last-hit, play safe, build an advantage, and steamroll to victory with a few good decisions.

Dominion's hard-mode. You always have to be working on your next move and never letting up the pressure, or the enemy will walk all over you.



Dominion is closer to a true strategy game because economy is not as big a factor.

Victory is based on good strategy - Almost pure decision-making. There's less "do this, and you're set". More "Do this, and you're safe... for now..."

Have a good early game and gold-base doesn't influence the game as much. What truly influences who wins and loses is team work. Individual player decisions. Being able to maintain a succession of good decision making is what wins Dominion.

Not everyone can handle that sort of environment, in my opinion. I know I don't last long, Dominion can be really exhausting.
That's probably why a lot of people don't like it. They want to last-hit, build a gold advantage, and just steamroll. Dominion isn't like that.

Summoner's Rift is won by good decision making - But on there, there's a point where if the enemy is fed enough, no good decision you make can turn the tables.




I'm not saying Dominion is perfect.
It has its own issues, like scoring, the viability of ranged champions, and other little things. But the fairness/rubberband mechanic is definitely not one of them.

A game that asks everyone to try their hardest, and punishes those who don't - That's a wonderful thing.
SR is less snowbally than DoTA/HoN, but Dominion makes SR look like DoTA.

This is what makes Dominion so appealing. This feeling of it's not over until it's over. Which isn't even fully true: I've definitely stomped and been stomped. I've actually been stomped in 5:41. There aren't real comeback mechanics; the enemy doesn't get more gold for dying. On the contrary, they lose more time and you can cap more points while they count down the death timers. As you get closer to closing the game, the punishment for dying gets larger. It applies to both teams. So, what there is is a lack of intense snowballing. Do people actually like that? In a basketball game, would it be fun if every time someone scored a point the other team got an injury? I hope not. What the winning team gets is the confidence and momentum that they are the better team. They also get a gold advantage, which is a snowbally mechanic, but it's handled by ambient gold gain. The losing team gets nothing beyond what the rules provide.

If you play consistently well, (which often means re-matching up and changing strategies) and you will secure the win. Repeatedly trying strats that don't work, or failing to work together as a team will often end up in a loss.


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Rippedface

Senior Member

10-13-2011

It's frustrating to have 400+ points and the other team only have 100 or so and still end up losing. I wondered how that happened.


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Ohforfsake

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Senior Member

10-13-2011

How about fixed respawn times based on game length. I'd rather win or lose based on how well me and my team does, not based on a respawn advantage or disadvantage.


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Necks

Senior Member

10-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rippedface View Post
It's frustrating to have 400+ points and the other team only have 100 or so and still end up losing. I wondered how that happened.
When a match is like 400 to 100, it's pretty much a given that the 400 point team is going to win. If they lose that, it's definitely because they were outplayed.

HOWEVER, that 400 - 100 match is not going to end straightforward as it may seem. It's not going to be a 350 - 0 victory. It almost always dwindles and dwindles to an artificially "close" 50 - 0 or so victory.

That's the issue here. I'm not complaining about losing. Winning is really not an issue for me. The issue is about how the game system assists losing teams so much that it feels like intervention. When I'm playing Summoner's Rift, I know that player skill and teamwork is the only thing that's standing between myself and my opponent. On Dominion, I feel like the game system is intervening and meddling way too much. Does anyone feel similar?


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BurntWalrus

Senior Member

10-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rippedface View Post
It's frustrating to have 400+ points and the other team only have 100 or so and still end up losing. I wondered how that happened.
Respawn timers are shorter, they gain points faster per tick when you get majority and are losing.

I think the main problem is respawn timers. I sometimes get 30 secs of respawn just cus we are winning by a few points, other times my timer is sooo low and I am only losing by a few.

I'd like if riot would personally put the respawn timer statistics and how its programmed so we can see whats actually going on.


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Necks

Senior Member

10-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post

This is a main area of our design focus right now to tune this properly as I agree it's a very sensitive subject, and the more feedback that you guys can give us over the coming patches will help us guide it in the right way. Definitely expect continual changes on this topic.

... o___o

The fact that a Riot developer agreed with me on this topic is very re-assuring. At least we know this is a real issue, and it's being worked on.


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Ansen

Senior Member

10-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necks View Post
When a match is like 400 to 100, it's pretty much a given that the 400 point team is going to win. If they lose that, it's definitely because they were outplayed.

HOWEVER, that 400 - 100 match is not going to end straightforward as it may seem. It's not going to be a 350 - 0 victory. It almost always dwindles and dwindles to an artificially "close" 50 - 0 or so victory.

That's the issue here. I'm not complaining about losing. Winning is really not an issue for me. The issue is about how the game system assists losing teams so much that it feels like intervention. When I'm playing Summoner's Rift, I know that player skill and teamwork is the only thing that's standing between myself and my opponent. On Dominion, I feel like the game system is intervening and meddling way too much. Does anyone feel similar?
In every reply in this thread, you keep repeating that the system is intervening, meddling, and coddling the losing team. However, you don't really provide any evidence that this is the case.

You did say that the losing team continues to receive passive gold at a rate that is higher than on Summoner's Rift. This is true. But the winning team receives this gold as well. Plus the gold for beating the other team in caps/kills. So there's no 'intervention' there...just a different baseline.

If you are so convinced that the system is intervening on behalf of the losing team, how about some facts that back up this assertion? How is it intervening? Or are you just assuming that's the case based on personal experiences of not being able to efficiently finish games when your team has a large lead?


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Seņor Pancho

Senior Member

10-13-2011

Quote:
It's frustrating to have 400+ points and the other team only have 100 or so and still end up losing. I wondered how that happened.
well this is a good example of you and your team ****ING UP, and blaming the respawns for it.