Dominion sympathizes for losing teams. Rubberbanding, artificial "close games", etc.

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Hobocop

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Senior Member

10-11-2011

I can tell you that the losing team doesn't gain any more gold than the winning team does unless the side on top hands it to them by overextending and giving them free kills and captures. Passive gold gain is the same for everyone, and the difference comes through kills, capturing points, the occasional quest, and possibly farming minions while pushing if your champ is good at that.

If you are on the winning team, and are winning nearly every engagement, you are going to win. Period. If the losing team doesn't shape up and change their game to overcome you, there's no way they're going to be able to come back. The only thing the game mode really does is ensure that the losing team is never really at a point where it's completely impossible for them to turn the game around.


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tiennen07

Senior Member

10-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necks View Post
If you read the original post, you'll know that I'm not complaining about losing. I don't have problems winning Dominion, really.

The issue at hand, here, is how the game mode assists losing teams so much to the extent that it feels like intervention.

The enemy team could have the worst possible Akali player in existence. I could probably kill her 15 times and shut her down at every capture point. Even despite that, the system guarantees that Akali will be spoon-fed a full set of items, maximum levels, all the gold and exp she needs to become a hyper carry no matter how terrible of a player she is. She's being rewarded for being a bad player. That is something I do not agree with. A Summoner's Rift Akali has to play exceptionally well to earn that hyper carry status. She deserves it through good gameplay. On Dominion, Akali simply has to connect to the game and she's guaranteed to be spoon fed a full set of equipment and max levels by the system. That is an example of how wrong the Dominion system is.

The Dominion system induces a comeback, not through the shaping up of player skill and better coordination from the losing team, but by literally feeding gold, exp, and items to them, changing Nexus point loss, changing respawn timers, etc. It's so artificial.
if you had actually read my post ( I did read your original post, fully) you would have seen that I was simply pointing out to you that your so-called "comeback mechanics" are nonexistent. take your tinfoil hat off.

the only thing I can see in any of your posts that makes any sense is that you mentioned that the losing team gets gold at the same rate the winning team does. EXACTLY. It is the passive gain that is the same, just like in Summoner's Rift. The winning team will still gain more gold through farming and getting more kills/tower caps than the losers. end of story.

please read and try to comprehend a post before you comment on it in the future. kthanxbai

edit: and when you think that the losing team gets a lower respawn timer, take a look at what happens in Summoner's Rift when a player that was on a killing spree dies (They get a longer respawn timer than normal). The reason the losing team _seems_ to have a shorter respawn timer is simply the fact that they don't have any modifiers to the base respawn timer, and they are most likely underleveled compared to you (yes, level affects your respawn timer as well).


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LigerZeroXX

Senior Member

10-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necks View Post
When my team is leading with 400+ points and the enemy has less than 100, I know that the match will not end so easily. The rubberband mechanics of Dominion will favor the losing team and postpone the match until it becomes artificially "a close game". My team will win with ~50 points left or so.

No matter how much effort you put into having that 400+ point lead, no matter how hard you fought for that advantage, the Dominion system will artificially create this long, drawn out illusion that the losing team can still win. It bothers me because it's the system that induces the artificial "close game". It's not the enemy team that's shaping up and getting better with player skill. It's the system feeding gold to the losing team, stopping the loss of Nexus points by champion deaths, modification of respawn timers, etc.

Anyone else bothered by the artificial feeling of "a close match" that the game induces? For me, it waters down the game. Victories don't feel rewarding because I know that 50% of my effort was spent combating the game system and not the enemy team's players. "Close matches" don't feel like player skill is deciding victories; rather, the system's aid for losing teams feels like a huge factor.
you only siad that it does it, but didnt say how , or why, or ow losing team canstill win. maybe its justsome champs not scaling well into late game
edit; about akali becoming a 'hypercarry" your obviously not itemizing defense enough or at all actually.


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Zeta

Senior Member

10-11-2011

"We won the fight at windmill, therefore we should snowball out of control and faceroll over the enemy team for a 15 minute victory party for the rest of the map!"

LOL

No.


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Harate

Senior Member

10-11-2011

lol necks is trying so hard. such a crybaby


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Miles Long

Senior Member

10-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Vinum View Post
Look, Dominion is aimed at a different mindset that you're used to. In SR a tiny mistake in the first 5-10 minutes can easily lead to you spending the next 30-50 minutes knowing that you're going to lose, knowing that there's nothing you can do about it and unable to surrender because you have a few idiots or trolls on board who vote no every time it comes up. Is it fun to be on the side that's winning and know that there's not much the other team can do to stop you as long as you don't have a screw up of epic proportions? It can be, but with that mechanic in place it all but guarantees that half the people involved are going to have a miserable time.

Further, Dominion doesn't actively help teams to come back or actively punish winning teams like you're implying, it just makes such comebacks possible. If you're winning, the way to keep winning it to play cautiously and consistently. You get the same base gold as the other team and if you're winning you should have more gold than they do because you've killed more champs and creeps and capped more towers. You should be better equipped than they are and as long as you don't die their death timer advantage doesn't help them one bit.

If you have 3 points capped and a huge lead on the other team you only have yourself to blame if you snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by pulling a Leeroy Jenkins, letting them backdoor you whatever dumb **** you're pulling that lets them secure the win.
Exactly why SR is complete horse$hit compared to Dominion. +1

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamCuri View Post
A game that asks everyone to try their hardest, and punishes those who don't - That's a wonderful thing.
Your whole post was great, but I thought I'd keep it short by further emphasizing what Dominion gets right and what SR fails at.

Just go back to SR, you silly op. It's clear from your posts that you only care about an imbalanced game experience designed around what is essentially griefing the enemy team out of the game.


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Anesthesiac

Adjudicator

10-11-2011

I don't know about the death timers, but you keep citing passive gold gain as the biggest gripe here. I can't say I follow your logic.

You say that a hypercarry who does very poorly for the majority of the game, but is still gaining passive gold at the exact same rate as every other player is being "rewarded" (your word) for being bad. This is where you go wrong. This bad player is being "rewarded" for being in the match, period (regardless of how well or poorly he is playing).

I would say that your complaint is actually that bad play is not punished heavily enough, such that late game comebacks are more commonplace than on SR. And perhaps you could make that argument... but first you'd need to make that argument.


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XaoGarrent

Senior Member

10-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anesthesiac View Post
I don't know about the death timers, but you keep citing passive gold gain as the biggest gripe here. I can't say I follow your logic.

You say that a hypercarry who does very poorly for the majority of the game, but is still gaining passive gold at the exact same rate as every other player is being "rewarded" (your word) for being bad. This is where you go wrong. This bad player is being "rewarded" for being in the match, period (regardless of how well or poorly he is playing).

I would say that your complaint is actually that bad play is not punished heavily enough, such that late game comebacks are more commonplace than on SR. And perhaps you could make that argument... but first you'd need to make that argument.
Before you could even make that argument, you'd then in turn need to qualify what constitutes bad play. Dominion is a much more aggressive game type, and in most similar models to the game type one man stands and risky gambits that would be considered noobish and bad in a typical MOBA setting are often encouraged and rewarded.

Games like Quake and Unreal have always been designed in such a way that a single good player can wipe out half the enemy team in a risky gambit if they're skilled and a little bit lucky, games in the Team Fortress series have always actively rewarded putting your own self in situations that are almost always a guaranteed death if it means allowing your team to get work done somewhere else. While I haven't played the newer games, Halo Combat Evolved rewarded the player for taking out another player in a vehicle by allowing them to then pilot the vehicle, likewise in Battlefield 2142 the huge mechs you could pilot had a weak spot under them, that- while it was risky to reach- could be used to win a fight with a mech on foot.

If Dominion is meant to be a more action-y version of LoL, then there shouldn't be "bad play" in the context of taking risks. While some stuff is frustrating and should be worked on, such as speed boost abusing backdoor tactics, there should not be many things that can be considered "bad play," just things that work, and things that don't.


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Duskstryder

Member

10-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by CasavaS View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamCuri
I don't see a problem with a game where you have to work together for the entirety of the game, and any slip-ups are emphasized for the enemy to take advantage of.

The game's rubberband effect doesn't cause the losing team to gain an advantage.
A lot of teams that start out ahead just stop pulling as hard as they had in the early game; they go "gg" when there's a 300 point lead and start making mistakes or goofing off.


The game rewards people who can work together seriously for the full 20 minutes, and DOMINATE.

Teams that start relaxing when the enemy nexus is below 50 points, are effectively costing themselves the game. It's not really the game's mechanics causing the rubberband effect - It's players like the OP misunderstanding how the game is set up.


There's always a chance the enemy can come back - So don't relax, and hold your points seriously until the enemy Nexus is at "0". Not "50", not "10", not even "1" - Until it's "0", zero, ziltch, the end.
There are games happening everyday where people lose while the enemy Nexus is below 5 points, because they relaxed before it was over, and the enemy pounced.

It's never over until its over.



If you think this sort of game is bad - You're weak.
A truly tough game is one that makes you try your hardest, from start to finish.

Summoner's Rift is easy-mode. You last-hit, play safe, build an advantage, and steamroll to victory with a few good decisions.

Dominion's hard-mode. You always have to be working on your next move and never letting up the pressure, or the enemy will walk all over you.



Dominion is closer to a true strategy game because economy is not as big a factor.
Victory is based on good strategy - Almost pure decision-making. There's less "do this, and you're set". More "Do this, and you're safe... for now..."

Have a good early game and gold-base doesn't influence the game as much. What truly influences who wins and loses is team work. Individual player decisions. Being able to maintain a succession of good decision making is what wins Dominion.

Not everyone can handle that sort of environment, in my opinion. I know I don't last long, Dominion can be really exhausting.
That's probably why a lot of people don't like it. They want to last-hit, build a gold advantage, and just steamroll. Dominion isn't like that.

Summoner's Rift is won by good decision making - But on there, there's a point where if the enemy is fed enough, no good decision you make can turn the tables.




I'm not saying Dominion is perfect.
It has its own issues, like scoring, the viability of ranged champions, and other little things. But the fairness/rubberband mechanic is definitely not one of them.

A game that asks everyone to try their hardest, and punishes those who don't - That's a wonderful thing.

+1. And if I could I'd give you another +1.+1. And if I could I'd give you another +1.
I'd give an additional +100 if I could.


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Duskstryder

Member

10-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necks View Post
Exactly. Even if you're losing, you're still constantly being rewarded with a lot of gold and exp by the system. You are not heavily punished for playing badly. So, even the very worst of worst players will still be given a full set of items and levels, even though they did nothing to deserve it. Again, it's the system that's artificially keeping bad players up in the match.

When a team is losing, the system babysits the losing team. Doesn't that bother anyone? I understand that statistically, this system will increase the amount of "close matches" that occur. But it's all artificially stimulated.

This is also the reason why hyper carry champions like Jax and Akali do so well on Dominion. No matter how badly they do, the system will still spoon-feed them with a full set of equipment, maximum levels, and allow them to excel in killing potential even if they didn't deserve it.

A Jax or Akali player has to play exceptionally well to achieve that hyper carry status on Summoner's Rift. On Dominion, they simply have to connect to the game and they are guaranteed to become hyper carries due to the system's spoon feeding and babysitting.
That's a negative Ghostrider. There's no "babysitting" or "rewarding" of the losing team. As others have stated, both teams have SAME base income, mechanics, whatever you wanna call it.The fact that the losing team is NOT PENALIZED does NOT equal babysitting. If anything, SR's mechanics "artificially simulate" a win for a team that does well in the beginning. Clearly you're one of those people that think that death penalties (especially as in Halo's optional increased spawn time) are all that and a bag of chips. Those kinds of mechanics are garbage IMO, especially in fast paced-games, like Dominion. I'm sorry, but death penalty does NOT necessarily mean rewarding good skill, but rather penalizing bad skill, bad luck, or weak early game play. As stated by others, Dominion's mechanics make it POSSIBLE for come backs, which gives the game a whole different feel, invigorating even.

I'm sorry, but in the words of Willy Wonka, "You lose, good day sir!" (metaphorically speaking).