Dominion sympathizes for losing teams. Rubberbanding, artificial "close games", etc.

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DarkOneBR

Member

10-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadarok View Post
In my opinion, there is no artificial help. Saying a slight scew in the respawn timers is the game "pitying them" is a HUGE exaggeration. The mechanics that are there are so small, it's amazing people claim it throws the game in the losers favor. These just keep the losers in the game. To prevent the game being over after the first windmill cap with the winner very easily sitting on 3 points.

All these claims of teams making comebacks without changing tactics or not making mistakes is extremely anecdotal and subjective. It's why Riot increased the time kills count for nexus points. Just to help with this FEELING some players have about the system.

I think people are just used to SR where heavy snowballing is the norm. The lack of punishment equates to a helping hand.
When my death timer is almost 25 and the enemy's is close to 15 in a quick paced map, it becomes a pretty considerable disadvantage.

If the enemy loses the first windmill fight they should regroup and retake it, or try attacking multiple points at once, divide and conquer.

That they can keep repeatedly throwing themselves at the windmill and almost inevitably take it back is clearly rewarding a flawed strategy.


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Jadarok

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Senior Member

10-19-2011

Quote:
That they can keep repeatedly throwing themselves at the windmill and almost inevitably take it back is clearly rewarding a flawed strategy.
But that's kinda your team's fault for letting it work. After you defend, you have time to go heal before the enemies respawn and regroup. It's not like instant endless waves of opponents hammering at windmill. Another exaggeration.

I'll say it again. It's just like in real life sports. In Tennis, you have to score on serve and break your opponents serve to win the match. In football, you have to be able to score touchdowns AND prevent them. Is changing possession after a touchdown considered a rubber-band mechanic?


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DarkOneBR

Member

10-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadarok View Post
But that's kinda your team's fault for letting it work. After you defend, you have time to go heal before the enemies respawn and regroup. It's not like instant endless waves of opponents hammering at windmill. Another exaggeration.

I'll say it again. It's just like in real life sports. In Tennis, you have to score on serve and break your opponents serve to win the match. In football, you have to be able to score touchdowns AND prevent them. Is changing possession after a touchdown considered a rubber-band mechanic?
Are your examples unilateral?
Because what happens in dominion is.

And my examples are as big an exaggeration as saying that the game is decided by the first windmill cap.


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Brackhar

Features Designer

10-19-2011
4 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadarok View Post
I asked this question myself. Why have that aspect in at all? Brackhar responded saying it was implemented to give more weight to the early game. Doing better early (at least when it comes to brawling), will give you a bigger points buffer end game.
The goal wasn't to give more weight to the early game, the goal was to make kills feel more rewarding and avoid cases where the team that's down is staring at an untouched score from the other team, as internal playtests found that incredibly demoralizing. Running the math on the playtests we generally saw that the overall effect was equivalent for both teams, about -70 points for each, so we saw the positives outweighing potential negatives. The threshold was added so that it increased tension around the final portion of the game.


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Jadarok

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Senior Member

10-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
The goal wasn't to give more weight to the early game, the goal was to make kills feel more rewarding and avoid cases where the team that's down is staring at an untouched score from the other team, as internal playtests found that incredibly demoralizing. Running the math on the playtests we generally saw that the overall effect was equivalent for both teams, about -70 points for each, so we saw the positives outweighing potential negatives. The threshold was added so that it increased tension around the final portion of the game.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Quote:
Are your examples unilateral?
Because what happens in dominion is.

And my examples are as big an exaggeration as saying that the game is decided by the first windmill cap.
Not sure I understand your response. I was just giving examples in other games (real life sports) that are considered fair fights, but have aspects that involve "giving the loser a chance to play" What I'm saying, these respawn timer offsets for being in the lead, is no different than giving possession to the other team after a touchdown in American football.

Why is it a bad thing that it's only 400-0 if your team is truly better than than your opponents? Why does the team with the 200 point lead in the beginning of the game, must win 90% of the time to be fair? What if that's just the way the game mechanics works? It's always gonna be a close game in score unless you totally dominate. I mean these respawn timers don't even come into play until the winners do something wrong, and the losers do something right.


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Shini Laser

Senior Member

10-19-2011

Just played four games, won all four, didn't notice any change at all. We won because we properly switched out defenders, worked together to defend/capture points (Lee Sin kicking an opponent into turret and Zilean then perma-slowing the person = lols), and we just worked as a team.

Which is how the team is meant to be played. Sure, does it get slightly harder over time? Maybe, depending on the enemy team. Overall, though, winning the windmill and taking an early game advantage only will result in a loss if your team gets overconfident and blows the lead.


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urmamasllama

Senior Member

10-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shini Laser View Post
Just played four games, won all four, didn't notice any change at all. We won because we properly switched out defenders, worked together to defend/capture points (Lee Sin kicking an opponent into turret and Zilean then perma-slowing the person = lols), and we just worked as a team.

Which is how the team is meant to be played. Sure, does it get slightly harder over time? Maybe, depending on the enemy team. Overall, though, winning the windmill and taking an early game advantage only will result in a loss if your team gets overconfident and blows the lead.
oh the changes were there in those games

we didn't get any rubberbanding THAT is for sure

and it used to happen all the time in that group


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Shini Laser

Senior Member

10-19-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by urmamasllama View Post
oh the changes were there in those games

we didn't get any rubberbanding THAT is for sure

and it used to happen all the time in that group
Well you didn't have an awesome Zilean to save your asses most likely! :-P

Only game you can say that was kinda rubberbanded was the one where we actually got down to ~100 HP, but that is because we were stupid near the beginning and gave them a 5 cap after getting the Windmill **** near uncontested, but once we got back to normal, we just played like we did the other 3 games. :-P


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Infirc

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Senior Member

10-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
The goal wasn't to give more weight to the early game, the goal was to make kills feel more rewarding and avoid cases where the team that's down is staring at an untouched score from the other team, as internal playtests found that incredibly demoralizing. Running the math on the playtests we generally saw that the overall effect was equivalent for both teams, about -70 points for each, so we saw the positives outweighing potential negatives. The threshold was added so that it increased tension around the final portion of the game.
but we would like the clarification if the issue of lower respawn timers for the losing team DO exist or that the longer respawn timers for the winning team are just because they're stacking a killing spree. and if your "capturing spree" also affects your respawn timers.
ie: an evelyy who hass neutralized 1 1points and capped 7 without dying a single time, does her "capping spree" alsos tacks for respawn timers, i found myself with 30s econd deathtimers when i was playing backdooring janna the first days of Dominion when people didnt know how to counter it.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

10-20-2011
5 of 5 Riot Posts

The recent patch changes should be beneficial to some of the problems you've pointed out. By reducing XP gain rates and tweaking the threshold of where kills can notch down nexus health, we have made it much easier to close out a game you are doing well with early -- before supercarries reliably go nuclear.

We aren't sure if we've fully accomplished this, but we will see. If not, we will make more changes.