Dominion sympathizes for losing teams. Rubberbanding, artificial "close games", etc.

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bARRtender

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10-14-2011

Agree. It should be a neutral slope, not a positive one.

(referring to Jozreal's response here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...5#post15843385 )


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Jadarok

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10-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by bARRtender View Post
Agree. It should be a neutral slope, not a positive one.

(referring to Jozreal's response here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...5#post15843385 )
Why should it be? This "positive" slop makes for fun and interesting game play. Especially from a spectators point of view.

This "positive" slop doesn't reward your for losing. It's more to make it a slight bit harder at the end to seal the deal. It wouldn't make the game any better, it would just satisfy the perceptions of a few people.

And this "slope" is so subtle, it's barely even their. It's like just enough to offset the slight gold lead a team would get from getting more kills than their opponents.


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Miles Long

Senior Member

10-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necks View Post
Riot developers are afraid that bad gameplay early on will be punished too heavily, and so they created a system that babysits losing teams. This same system also unfairly supports hyper carry champions more than others. Hyper carries like Jax and Akali, who scale off of items, are automatically spoon-fed end-game items and max levels without having to do anything. A Jax or Akali can die 15 times and get shut down at every capture point. Then, the system says "Here, have this gunblade. Here, have another gunblade" and rewards them with late-game items and maximum levels, EVEN THOUGH THEY DID NOT DESERVE IT.

Instead of relying on player skill and teamwork to pull themselves back into the game, the system actually puts its hand under the losing team's arse, and artificially pushes them back up with the modification of respawn timers, protecting them from Nexus point loss by champion deaths, etc. This is supposed to be a PVP game. Why do I feel like Riot is stepping into the middle of my match and intervening with these babysitting mechanics and rubberband sympathy for losing teams?
This is just the most illogical hateful $hit I've read about Dominion.

The game does not babysit the losing team. It's more appropriate to say that the game babysits the winning team on SR, which leads to toxic and stale gameplay. Although it might be true nine times out of ten on SR, it still doesn't change the fact that you don't deserve to win just because you bank an early lead. You play at all stages of the game. All 500 Nexus health. You don't slap off 300-400 and get this entitlement complex, you fscking take all 500 health.

Everybody gets the same amount of gold, you cannot complain about the enemy team buying items that will work in their advantage, even if we're talking about borderline broken carries and the all too cost efficient Hextech Gunblade. Your illusions about what a player deserves ingame are irrelevant, seeing as how the game is balanced in such a way that everybody gets access to the same amount of buying power. When you take away the possibility to grief/deny through Riot's very poorly balanced laning phase (SR), you put everybody on equal terms, which allows for true skill to shine through. I've beaten teams that consist of FotM bull$hit, so you cannot tell me that picking Jax, Akali, Poppy, Rammus, etc. is an instant win. It fscking isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadarok View Post
What you want is a team to be punished MORE for losing. You just have this SR snowball mentality.
This is why you feel like Riot is intervening, because the sad truth is that it's quite the opposite. You're used to having your hand held for your wins on SR and that doesn't exist on CS.

Part of the skill of the game is knowing how to shift between offense and defense while you hold your capture points. Sometimes you have to juggle/trade points with the enemy to try to stay three capped, also an invaluable skill to learn. Because you have obvious misconceptions about the so-called losing advantage, it sounds to me as if you honestly believe it's not worth it to hold more points than the enemy. You don't think it's worth giving yourself the biggest advantage in the game: The winning advantage.

Yeah, it sure isn't fscking easy to win the windmill first and then get back on point before they recuperate. Guess what: THAT'S THE POINT. And while you're three capped over them, their nexus health is draining: Your team has the best advantage in the game. Despite this, you don't think it's fair that the losing team should have a fair chance to fight back and take some points for themselves so they can gain that advantage and thus create a little something called competition.

The game does not help the losing team, it is simply asking you to prove your worth by not only capturing, but holding, all the way to the last hit point. It is not all about defense or just picking any herp derp "hyper-carry" and facerolling to win.

Your argument is faulty and I'm tired of reading it. Please just go back to SR, you can play your deny happy, hold-down-the-other-team-and-make-it-extremely-unfun-for-them, over-in-ten-minutes cr@p to your hearts content. Don't come crying here when you have to be on the losing side.

And you will be, sooner or later. Then, you can weigh a game that punishes you heavily for falling behind against a game that doesn't. Try reconciling this with your boneheaded argument, then maybe you'll see merit in Dominion and see what's killing SR.


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Numbat

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10-14-2011

Quote:
As an analogy to SR, think of it like the respawn adjustments are simulating how far into enemy territory your 5-man group is running. The closer to the enemy base you are the more likely you are to win the game, but the more punishing dying can be in terms of letting the opposing team rebound.
What you're talking about is reinforcement advantage which on SR is nonexistent for the defending team. For one there are 5 champs max on any team and having 5 champs alive is the norm (compare that to SC2 where reinforcements are constant). As it is respawn timers work in the favor of the offensive team because if they die the defending team has a harder time pushing than the offensive team does if the defenders die. Case in point: if your team is aced anywhere near your nexus late game you'll often lose pretty much instantly.

You also misinterpret what attrition gameplay actually is. Attrition is trading hits until someone dies, whether it's a champion skills or a nexus damaged by point caps. It doesn't care what the health of either participant is, it's more or less a race to 0 HP.

Finally, the rubberbanding mechanic doesn't even function the same way as a reinforcement mechanic. If a winning player finds himself overextended in SC2 or SR he can simply pull back and cede the map with no penalty except that he's no longer on the offensive. On Dominion that isn't an option: whether you're trying to control 1 point or 5 you suffer from the same respawn timer differential. Even worse if you don't have Windmill you're actively losing whatever point advantage you've earned, so you *have* to defend it at a disadvantage (hurhur respawn timers).

In conclusion I have no idea how much the rebounding respawn timers *really* affect the game but they don't really achieve your objective and do nothing but handicap whichever team is winning.


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Jadarok

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10-14-2011

Quote:
This is why you feel like Riot is intervening, because the sad truth is that it's quite the opposite. You're used to having your hand held for your wins on SR and that doesn't exist on CS.
I think you quoted me by mistake...that was a post of me agreeing with what you are saying ;D

Quote:
Even worse if you don't have Windmill you're actively losing whatever point advantage you've earned, so you *have* to defend it at a disadvantag
You have to think of the big picture. That's exactly why these point advantages are important. Because of how easily the game swings if you are not careful, having the lead helps buffer that. Saying it's handicapping the winning team is an over statement.


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Miles Long

Senior Member

10-14-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadarok View Post
I think you quoted me by mistake...that was a post of me agreeing with what you are saying ;D
No, that was deliberate. I was using your quote to emphasize that point to him.

Probably could've made it more clear that I was still addressing him despite quoting a different poster. My bad.


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TheHidden

Member

10-14-2011

The only thing, in my opinion, that is discussable are respawn timers. I'm not 100% sure but I think they are higher the more points you possess. This really makes it almost impossible to hold points close to the enemy base because not only do you have to move way farther to assist there but you also take much longer to respawn.

Simply because of the fact that each team has two points next to their spawn I think Riot could lower the respawn timer discrepancy while still allowing teams to comeback easily.


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Numbat

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10-14-2011

It has been stated by reds that it's based on nexus health, not point caps, which is a whole different can of worms IMO.


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Jadarok

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10-14-2011

Well Numbat how about this. In my opinion all the "rewards" you claim the losers get, I really don't agree with. Plus you don't really seem to debate your opinions.

So how about this. Take all these mechanics you feel make the game reward losers somehow, and make a bulleted list on how you think it should be.


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Zeirnaton

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10-14-2011

sounds pretty casual not gonna lie....oh wai~~~~