Team caps 3 and goes for 5. We lose everything

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Ansre

Senior Member

11-09-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by aim1essgun View Post
Actually, you can easily tell if someone is going to come down on you. Look at spawn timers. Know how long it takes to cap vs how long it takes for one of them to get there. Not rocket science.
This. How can he claim he's so pro, and then act like it's anything but easy to predict where enemies are on this map?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aim1essgun View Post
This is mainly in relation to bot lane where you are unopposed, and you know, 100%, that the guy nearest to respawning will be coming down to stop you.
It's equally applicable when trying to cap any node at all, except at the very start of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aim1essgun View Post
So your choice is, go for a cap and get interrupted by a guy that was going to come anyways, or push the wave and ensure a cap or a double team.
This is one of those things I was hoping for a better discussion of. I don't agree that pushing that lane will help; it depends on the ability of any defender to clear the wave. If a good pusher shows up, you've just bundled for and fed to them easy CS.

Pushing the creep wave seems worthwhile only in even matchups (4v4 top, or 1v1 bot for example), and then only if the enemy can't or won't farm the wave quickly/easily. In the case of the 4v4, those minions can flip a node to neutral while you're fighting; this way, you don't need to dedicate someone to capping while also avoiding/minimizing turret damage. In the 1v1, without the wave the opposing solo could respawn and return to interrupt your attempt to flip it from neutral to capped, let alone someone else showing up to defend.

I was really hoping for a more detailed discussion of backcapping. Capping to 98% of flipping to neutral, then coming back to finish the cap, for example, is one approach to dealing with a defender that isn't also the most easily followed rule: bring massive burst damage.

I think slowfiveoh is just trying to establish that burst + cc, combined with a focus on combat between nodes is the best approach; it sure is. I already do that every game.


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aim1essgun

Senior Member

11-09-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
This is one of those things I was hoping for a better discussion of. I don't agree that pushing that lane will help; it depends on the ability of any defender to clear the wave. If a good pusher shows up, you've just bundled for and fed to them easy CS.
That's true, it's matchup dependent. However, if the enemy is blowing his abilities to clear a wave, then they're on CD when you jump on him a split second later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
I was really hoping for a more detailed discussion of backcapping. Capping to 98% of flipping to neutral, then coming back to finish the cap, for example, is one approach to dealing with a defender that isn't also the most easily followed rule: bring massive burst damage.
This is an interesting idea. I'm not sure what the 'heal' rate on the towers is, but I get the impression it's rather quick (for example, I interrupt Eve just before she gets a neutralize, she runs off invis, I stand around for a few seconds then leave, when she comes back she doesn't immediately get the neutralize, and I have time to come back and interrupt again).


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Ansre

Senior Member

11-09-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by aim1essgun View Post
That's true, it's matchup dependent. However, if the enemy is blowing his abilities to clear a wave, then they're on CD when you jump on him a split second later.
I guess it would depend on the match up; I had a pusher like Kayle in mind, with a low downtime on her farm while also being survivable enough to not feel too threatened while its down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aim1essgun View Post
This is an interesting idea. I'm not sure what the 'heal' rate on the towers is, but I get the impression it's rather quick (for example, I interrupt Eve just before she gets a neutralize, she runs off invis, I stand around for a few seconds then leave, when she comes back she doesn't immediately get the neutralize, and I have time to come back and interrupt again).
The innate heal rate is relatively slow; slow enough that even with garrison, a node that's been pushed to ~95% of flipping won't recover to full within the duration of garrison and it's regen buff. At the same time, it's fast enough that unless you're dedicated to returning to the particular turret soon, it will recover to full.


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slowfiveoh

Senior Member

11-09-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
In your response to aim1essgun you admit that there's a place for killing 1-2 minions just to push the wave to the platform. First, when did I suggest anything more dedicated to farming than that? Second, if that's viable, why are you so opposed to any strategy or tactic which might make slightly more use of minions through better coordinated caps alongside minion waves plus possible use of promote?
"Farming" minions to push the creep wave effectively forward is a complete waste of time in any and all cases. When one says "farm a creep wave", they are not implying killing one or two opposing minions to get theirs 6 inches onto the platform. They are talking about sitting and farming gold and exp off of them. This implies a much larger duration than I specified.

Do not backpedal, which is what you are de facto doing right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
Why are you taking the suggestion of paying minor attention to the minions, and assuming it advocates passively farming minions on the far side of the map from where the action is?
You are trying to shift your term of "farming minions" into something that isn't "farming minions". You're backpedaling away from your initial comment, as well as aim1essguns comment about how farming minions is viable. It is not. Stop doing it. You are screwing your team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
Also, what team is running around clustered in a group of five? Wouldn't that be like the best time to persistent backdoor? Maybe force them to split up?
Nope. They will crush what remains of your team then cruise around snagging points with no opposition at a capture rate far superior to your crappy backdooring tactic.

They can even simply send one or two after melting your teammates to kill you and recap the point immediately. Then they have 4 points, and with minimal effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
What are you going on about? I'm talking about literally just waiting 2-3 seconds to ensure they cap their bot/mid first, and get 1-2 ticks before the fight at top even starts.
Yeah you're not tactically proficient whatsoever. It is completely self-evident.

The time taken to cap the point initially is worth it, and if you can't understand why, then you're too slow to have this conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
Are you just trolling? Half that paragraph is nonsense claiming that backdooring is accomplished by sitting under your turret. Then you end it by making what's possibly the first sensible statement I've seen you make.
There is nothing whatsoever in my comment that infers sitting under a turret and camping as relational to capping a point.

Please learn English before making accusational claims. It is absolutely tragic that you derived some sort of "camping" commentary out of a source where it doesn't even exist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
I'm surprised you didn't suggest that your teammates think the perfect time to farm minions is when four enemies are dead and have double digit death timers.
No. This is a time to cap other points, or mass at the forward line. If you are farming minions, then there is an active point somewhere that needs to be capped.

If all points are capped, make it hell to get out of their base.

If you are farming, you are wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
I was referring to you, but I guess you're unfamiliar with the reference. Anyone who is familiar with it will probably get a good chuckle if they're following this thread.
You can't "refer" to me because I am typically quiet in games. So nice try kiddo.

However, I am sure your farming creep waves, and camping turrets will go well for you.

Let me know when your team is done raging at you for being useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
You really won't change that by screaming it whenever you can. Bads will be bads. What you can do is avoid advertising what works, because we all know Riot nerfs what works whenever they can pin it down.
Persistence pays off more than you think. I can tell by your frame of mind that you are young and unexperienced. You have a long way to go.

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Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
So we've established it was pubstomping; we can drop any specific reference to it, Pantheon, or Sion, at this point.
Every game won ever is a pubstomp. AMIRITE?

I am amazed at how intellectually shallow you are, but not surprised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
Evenly matched teams generate good games; more news at 11.
Evenly AGGRESSIVE teams. Another reporter gets it wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
What you're calling "persistent pressure" usually manifests as overextending in solo queue. There is almost always some sort of pressure somewhere on the map; try clarifying your argument.

Solo queue has so little to do with Dominion tactics. Aggressive players, playing together, with no former knowledge of their styles, will win hands down every time over camping defenders. Period.

What you are is one of those guys who capriciously alters the meaning of an argument in order to try and make more sense out of what you have said before. It's kind of funny to be blunt with you.

"Persistent Pressure" is the product of a team applying global aggressiveness to their play style. Any other "Pressure" is not persistent.

Please take a few classes on logic or critical thought.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
How is camping bot equal to constantly roaming for opportunities to cap a node?
Nice try!

This has been MY argument this whole time.

You and the level 28 guy over there are the ones arguing FOR minion farming and point camping.

Lrn2notdothosetwothingsthnx

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
I thought we already established you pubstomped that game. We know the enemy was pretty scrub based on their summoners alone. No one's trying to knock you; you're just throwing one poor example out there with minimal supporting evidence, while making a big stink about how awesome you think you are for sharing. Ok, maybe I am trying to knock you, but it's for your attitude. I actually checked out your Panth games for hints on an item build.
You have been this entire time and it is evident. By the way, my Panth build is probably not the "best" Panth build. Mine is built for best average damage against a wide variety of teams. Also, it isn't my item build specifically that makes the early game dominations a bit easier. Look more towards my runes.

You sit here denegrating me, my gameplay, and my advice, while not being willing to share you experience, your statistics, or other metrics that would help us understand your experience level with the game. Typically, this is a sign that you don't have as much.

You then make presumptions about how I conduct myself in game, which is rather infantile of you to be honest. As is all the thinly veiled attacks you are making towards me.

aim1essgun does have far, far, FAR fewer wins and experience. I am trying to be nice and share my extensive experience with both of you, as well as my fundamental understandings of the inner workings of this game.

Instead, I get lip service. Good luck with your farming and point camping.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
Your advice, "skill, build knowledge and map tactics rules this game" was the "kind of obvious" info. Similarly obvious but worth mentioning separately is that I'm not so conceited that I won't admit a coordinated support team will probably beat my uncoordinated solo queue team one day. Both of those teams in your screenshot had strong champs, but I'm still correct that you pubstomped, which is what I was speculating on simply based off your anecdote (before you posted the screenshot, even).
Oh what a tangled web you weave.

Your first reply to the screenshot was that I won a game with a set of "stronger" champs. This is in fact your initial implication.

Now you have backpedalled and changed it to "The champs are even 'strengthwise', you just 'pubstomped' ". No, the other team was comprised of good players and individually they would have been a handful for any of us on the team.

The problem was with their tactics. This does not make it a "pubstomping", which again, is a baddies word for trying to denegrate somebody elses victory.

They felt it necessary to "Control bottom" by camping it persistently, making all team fights a 4v5 affair.

They would, on occasion, stop to farm minions for 10-15 seconds.

Both factors got them murdered.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
I have a hard time taking you seriously; your runes only play a minor role in that, though it is a bit tough to take a guy with multiple pages covered in secondary runes seriously.
Wow you are a baddy. Runes make a major early game difference. Particularly flat pages.

Before I even touch the shop on Pantheon for example, I already have more than 2 long swords in damage. Stack that damage with boots and two additional longswords and you are 5 damage short of having a BF sword at level 3. This yields ~300 damage out of HSS @ level 3.

Care to take guess what the median hitpoint level is for all champs @ level 3?

If you think runes are "minor" in effect, then you have a long way to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
As an addendum to "did you run out of IP before buying all your flat mana marks," did you alternatively realize that flat mana marks are a waste of IP and instead stop buying them?
No kiddo. I simply filled the slots I couldn't afford marks for with AP marks in the interim.

I can tell you don't play Ryze.

I mean, who wants to start a game with 1000+ mana and an extremely deadly early round RP and Overload? Not to mention its like having a partially full tear already. Hurp de durp bro.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
I care? I'm not the one who is running to the profiles to justify my opinion.
This is because your opinion is piss poor, as is your assessment of Tier 3 runes and their effect on gameplay.

Also, I don't think you have a high level profile anyways. I can tell just by how you talk and what you focus on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
Gold gains for minion kills are pretty high; one wave is more gold than you get for a baseline champion kill, and it's more than you get for solo flipping a node to neutral or from neutral to capped.
Go farm minions bro!

It's not like killing champions, capping or neutralizing points and engaging in map control is the focus of Dominion.

It's not like the pace requires persistent pressure all over the map and very aggressive point capping, resulting in consistent gold flow. No, that couldn't be the case.

Farm dem minions! I mean it's even in the title right?

DoMinions. Yeah buddy. Do Minions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansre View Post
That isn't to say that focusing on CS is advisable; you'll be out of position for most of the important fights that way. I'm merely highlighting that there's definitely some value there, where as you want to totally ignore any possible value that might be there for some as yet unknown reasons.
Yeah bro, those "unknown reasons" are things like:

-You should ALWAYS be chasing a point, defending one, or engaging in teamfights.
-Any time wasted farming minions could have been better served doing something else, like engaging in the above.

Learn to make a modicum of sense, and ffs stop backpedaling. Stand firm in what you believe if you believe it, and even better than that, have substantiation for WHY you believe that.

Winning Dominion is all about aggression levels, and map dominance.

Go ahead and spout ignorance about minion farming and point capping all you like. Only you and aim1essgun are buying into that ****.


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FouR TrYsS

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Senior Member

11-09-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by XenoBreak View Post
I imagine something like this might work? I might be wrong haha... i just whipped it up in paint.
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8171/f8875200d57275a9894c09b.png

Guy on top and bottom and then the other three around those other spots just hanging out so they can quickly get to any point that needs help.

You should be a digital artist