Jax!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Brandavi

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06-05-2010

Jax really is the best melee DPS. Shen really is the best Tank. Janna really is the best mage. Ezreal is the best ranged DPS, yes Ezreal NOT Ashe. Soraka really is the best support.

Being the best is not analogous to being over-powered. Should the "Tier 5-6"/"overshadowed" champs be buffed? Not my concern. I play Jax, Sion, and Veigar. I do best with Sion, second best with Jax, and usually terrible with Veigar.

I would love to see Veigar get a buff, but I don't really think he needs one.

Back to the topic; Jax is easily countered. You can use mages, as earlier posters have suggested, you can use Ezreal, TF, Ashe, Teemo, or Twitch. Ranged DPS make great Jax-Counters, especially if your ranged DPS-er has a slow.


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kilikem

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilun View Post
Well first off I do agree Jax is OP in 3v3. My entire balance assessment as assuming the default game type of 5v5. 3v3 has all sorts of additional balance problems.
Sorry, but if Jax 1v5ed you he either

A). had such a huge number of kills you deserved to lose anyway

or

B). your team was extremely uncoodinated

or

C). you're probably low ELO and weren't playing very well
You realize Trynd is widely regarded as one of the weakest champions in the game; that you're citing him as a 1v5 powerplayer implies option C listed above is likely the case.
no i am not low elo -.-....BUT obviously u havnt seen what i have....which is a trynd walking into your base hitting 1k+ crits with pretty high attack speed and killing 2-3 people b4 he gets low then just popping his ult, finishing off the rest, and bloodlusting to heal while walking out....WEAK?! HA....trynd maybe very weak start game but id like to see u 1v1-2v1 a trynd that has his full build (and doesnt suck as trynd)


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kilikem

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandavi View Post
Jax really is the best melee DPS. Shen really is the best Tank. Janna really is the best mage. Ezreal is the best ranged DPS, yes Ezreal NOT Ashe. Soraka really is the best support.

Being the best is not analogous to being over-powered. Should the "Tier 5-6"/"overshadowed" champs be buffed? Not my concern. I play Jax, Sion, and Veigar. I do best with Sion, second best with Jax, and usually terrible with Veigar.

I would love to see Veigar get a buff, but I don't really think he needs one.

Back to the topic; Jax is easily countered. You can use mages, as earlier posters have suggested, you can use Ezreal, TF, Ashe, Teemo, or Twitch. Ranged DPS make great Jax-Counters, especially if your ranged DPS-er has a slow.
who cares if your range dps'er has a slow when he can just jump at u...and not to mention every char u said must auto attack to be good in which will proc his stun leaving u to sit there and probably die within the second ur stunned


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kilikem

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilun View Post
Well first off I do agree Jax is OP in 3v3. My entire balance assessment as assuming the default game type of 5v5. 3v3 has all sorts of additional balance problems.
Sorry, but if Jax 1v5ed you he either

A). had such a huge number of kills you deserved to lose anyway

or

B). your team was extremely uncoodinated

or

C). you're probably low ELO and weren't playing very well
You realize Trynd is widely regarded as one of the weakest champions in the game; that you're citing him as a 1v5 powerplayer implies option C listed above is likely the case.
He has a gunblade and a rageblade and you don't have the items between your team to burst him down? That's about 6k worth of items, 7.5k with ninja tabi. For that money he gains an extra 440 health(25% increase in help), combined with say 30% dodge thats essentially an extra 62.5% health vs physical and 30% vs magical damage.

With 5 people you have 5 champions worth of damage 500% damage. Even if he's fed and deals mroe damage then an individual, 5 of you will exceed his damage output by far more then 62.5%.

1v5 jax is mostly a myth perpetrated by bad/uncoordinated players. a feed jax 1v2 or 1v3ing a disorganized team maybe, but if you get 1v5ed by a jax you have no one but yousefl to blame



He doesn't require it. You just need it to be able to burst him down within the length of a CC with 2-3 people.

If your organized and your team has comprable kills to the enemy team, the combined damage output of 3-4 champions will far outstrip the mitigation given by his defenses.
Anecdotal evidence really fails to sway me. That said i would agree that jax has a pretty flat learning curve. He's extremely potent and doesn't require alot of practice to play well. This is why he dominates the low ELO . I'm not saying he's weak in other brackets; he's a top tier champion pretty much all throughout, but he only really reaches the level of domination I consider OP int he low ELO brackets.
again, anecdotal evidence. fromt he first part of your story though you sounded pretty fed. And being that the two enemies engaged you one at a time, rather then together, a fed melee carry beating them doesn't soundout of line(especially as they are both physical DPS, jax's specialty.

Though as stated above I agree Jax's stun should only be available after dodging a champion.


Well first off I do agree that Counterstrike should only proc when jax dodges a champion; I do find it kind of silly that your own minions are only a liability.

Again though, it sounds like you're trying to 1v1 jax; which just isn't a good idea unless you're an equally fed faceroll caster.
While I could see sword of the divine benefiting from an overhaul, this sort of thing seems a bit extreme. One 2000 gold item should not utterly negate some element of an opponent's character cost-free. Similar effects include(as you cited) executioners calling and also oracle elixers for stealth. The former constitutes a partial reduction(not complete) and the latter carries the risk of loss on death.

Personally I've long thought that sword of the divine should have it's active replaced with a unique passive that reduces the dodge chance/miss chance of all of your attacks by 1/3(33% of base value).
And why specifically should dodge be treated differently then every other % damage reduction in the game? Does amour only reduce 1 attack per second? does MR?

Like it or not, by default if you have a melee focused team, dodge is a counter to your primary focus; you should be at something of a disadvantage. This is why it's beneficial to have a balanced team composition.
This seems reasonable to me. But it's rather niche and really changes nothing besides the removal of dodging shaco crits. and perhaps 1 attack for twitch/teemo.
you sit here and point out many thing...some i agree with and some i dont agree with, BUT, you say things saying like that u could probably take him down if u have "TEAMWORK" well.....think about it the other way around why dont u? what if the jax and his team have teamwork? then the champion that no1 can 1v1....has backup.....so while he is plowing u down u may be getting cc'ed and nuked by ryze.....or ulted by nunu....or any of the other vast scenarios that could happen...THEN what r u to do? nunu ults you, then you would be forced to interupt and attack nunu....leaving jax to pound on u....if u try to run he will pound on u anyways, nunu can just stop his ult bloodboil jax and slow u down so u cant run.....what if a situation like that happened? or say ur ganna go 2v1 jax and ur like YEA WE GOT HIM THIS TIME!!! then BAM an ashe arrow flys out and smacks u...now ur stunned and slowed and jax can continue to pound on u....so PLEASE!!!!!!!!!! by any means....tell me what you would do then......


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Wretch

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilun View Post
Personally I've long thought that sword of the divine should have it's active replaced with a unique passive that reduces the dodge chance/miss chance of all of your attacks by 1/3(33% of base value).
And why specifically should dodge be treated differently then every other % damage reduction in the game? Does amour only reduce 1 attack per second? does MR?

Like it or not, by default if you have a melee focused team, dodge is a counter to your primary focus; you should be at something of a disadvantage. This is why it's beneficial to have a balanced team composition.
This seems reasonable to me. But it's rather niche and really changes nothing besides the removal of dodging shaco crits. and perhaps 1 attack for twitch/teemo.
The reason Dodge should be treated differently than armor or magic resist, is because its inherently different. If you dodge an attack, you avoid the damage entirely. With armor and magic resist, you reduce part of the damage that is dealt.

Totally ignoring damage is always superior to reducing damage, especially when its so easy for Jax to stack dodge. A jax can reach 30% + dodge with just a ninja tabi, which is the cheapest route you can go when buying boots.

The fact is that the brutalizer, last whisper, Starks fervor, and Ghostblade are all counters to stacking armor. Sorc shoes, abyssal scepter, haunting guise, and void staff exist to directly counter magic resist stackers. Sword of the Divine is the only item that counters dodge and it does so in a very worthless fashion...


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Bilun

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilikem View Post
you sit here and point out many thing...some i agree with and some i dont agree with, BUT, you say things saying like that u could probably take him down if u have "TEAMWORK" well.....think about it the other way around why dont u? what if the jax and his team have teamwork? then the champion that no1 can 1v1....has backup.....so while he is plowing u down u may be getting cc'ed and nuked by ryze.....or ulted by nunu....or any of the other vast scenarios that could happen...THEN what r u to do? nunu ults you, then you would be forced to interupt and attack nunu....leaving jax to pound on u....if u try to run he will pound on u anyways, nunu can just stop his ult bloodboil jax and slow u down so u cant run.....what if a situation like that happened? or say ur ganna go 2v1 jax and ur like YEA WE GOT HIM THIS TIME!!! then BAM an ashe arrow flys out and smacks u...now ur stunned and slowed and jax can continue to pound on u....so PLEASE!!!!!!!!!! by any means....tell me what you would do then......
Except that 1v1 potency is not directly proportional to contribution in team fights. While jax is hands down a better 1v1 champion then fiddlesticks for example, fiddlesticks will contribute more to group fights if played well.


In my experience, jax becomes less of a factor the larger the magnitude of the fight. He's a god 1v1, huge 2v2, waning in potency by 3v3, and so forth. His abilities are just better suited to dealing with a single enemy and don't start doing much more when multiple allies/enemies are present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretch View Post
The reason Dodge should be treated differently than armor or magic resist, is because its inherently different. If you dodge an attack, you avoid the damage entirely. With armor and magic resist, you reduce part of the damage that is dealt.

Totally ignoring damage is always superior to reducing damage, especially when its so easy for Jax to stack dodge. A jax can reach 30% + dodge with just a ninja tabi, which is the cheapest route you can go when buying boots.
actually statistically speaking, there is absolutely no difference between taking 0 damahe 30% of the time and taking 70% damage 100% of the time.

It is however superior in one regard though: dodge also mitigates on hit effects even if they aren't physical damage.

That said, I think the itemization weight on dodge is appropriate.
Quote:
The fact is that the brutalizer, last whisper, Starks fervor, and Ghostblade are all counters to stacking armor. Sorc shoes, abyssal scepter, haunting guise, and void staff exist to directly counter magic resist stackers. Sword of the Divine is the only item that counters dodge and it does so in a very worthless fashion...
Of the items you named, only last whisper & void staff are designed to counter high armour/MR enemies; the rest deal static MR/armour reductions whicha re more effective against low armour enemies then tanks.

Likewise sword of the divine falls into the category of beign designed to be effective against high dodge enemies.

As said above, I'd approve of sword of the divine getting a bit of an upgrade. I merely say that your expectation of a single 2k gold item to be a perfect counter which completely negates an opponent's defense is expecting a bit much.


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Mr Voodooshoodoo

Senior Member

06-05-2010

hmm I guess ur right. Also did you say something about on hit effects like tf's pick a card thing, my first fight against jax as Tf wasnt pretty


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Bilun

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHAZAMBAM View Post
hmm I guess ur right. Also did you say something about on hit effects like tf's pick a card thing, my first fight against jax as Tf wasnt pretty
Aye, TF's PaC is an on hit effect; personally I always thought making PaC dodgeable was unnecessary and a bad idea. The all or nothing nature make it a poorly concieved counter because:

A). it makes TF's main survival mechanism unreliable

and

B). dodge as a counterstat is an unreliable defense against a stun that can often be the difference between life and death(as it will for most characters protect you a max of 20% of the time, which more then like won't be "the right" 20%.)



I think dodge is an acceptable counter for on hit effects that occur on every attack such as those given by items, but personally I think attack carrying a single instance of an ability such as TF's PaC and Shaco's decieve hit should not be dodgeable(or at least the extra effect should be applied even if the base damage is dodged).


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Willy Sharky

Senior Member

06-05-2010

i've been on fight against a jax in a 2 vs 1 with him having less than 30% of his health and both of us full and he killed us both


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Wretch

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilun View Post
Except that 1v1 potency is not directly proportional to contribution in team fights. While jax is hands down a better 1v1 champion then fiddlesticks for example, fiddlesticks will contribute more to group fights if played well.


In my experience, jax becomes less of a factor the larger the magnitude of the fight. He's a god 1v1, huge 2v2, waning in potency by 3v3, and so forth. His abilities are just better suited to dealing with a single enemy and don't start doing much more when multiple allies/enemies are present.


actually statistically speaking, there is absolutely no difference between taking 0 damahe 30% of the time and taking 70% damage 100% of the time.

It is however superior in one regard though: dodge also mitigates on hit effects even if they aren't physical damage.

That said, I think the itemization weight on dodge is appropriate.


Of the items you named, only last whisper & void staff are designed to counter high armour/MR enemies; the rest deal static MR/armour reductions whicha re more effective against low armour enemies then tanks.

Likewise sword of the divine falls into the category of beign designed to be effective against high dodge enemies.

As said above, I'd approve of sword of the divine getting a bit of an upgrade. I merely say that your expectation of a single 2k gold item to be a perfect counter which completely negates an opponent's defense is expecting a bit much.
You are not making much sense. I didnt say anything about a single 2k gold item being made the perfect counter to dodge. What I am saying is that this single 2k gold item is worthless. A last whisper is far greater a counter to armor than a SoD is to dodge and the other aspects to last whisper are far superior to SoD's.

I would much rather have a version of " the brutalizer " with some type of counter to dodge that is passive. Its amazing how all the MR and Armor counters are passive where as the dodge counter is a 5 second active, that is ruined by a stun or exhaust.

The only reason there are no real counters to dodge, is the fact that there is one champ that scales with it. There is no black cleaver, which benefits your offense as well as lowering armor. There is so no starks fervor, which gives you lifesteal, lowers armor, and benefits your team. There is no spell flux, that does aoe damage and lowers MR. There is no Grog soaked blade, which reduces healing. There is no Tormented Soil, which does aoe damage and aoe magic resist reduction. There is 1 counter, SoD which gives you 55 AS and 100 magic damage every 4th hit and ignores dodge for 5 seconds active.

If one single champion had a counter to dodge, I wouldnt mind the fact that 1 **** item doesnt counter it well. In my opinion, every champ should have an other champ that counters him/her. Jax has no hard counter. Every other champ has a champ thats a hard counter.