Jax!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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kilikem

Senior Member

06-05-2010

btw if ANYONE would like to throw down an idea on how to counter jax, WITH A MELEE CHAMPION (ranged or not) id be glad to test it but so far iv not found a way....even with sword of the divine i get raped >_>


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Mr Voodooshoodoo

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilikem View Post
btw if ANYONE would like to throw down an idea on how to counter jax, WITH A MELEE CHAMPION (ranged or not) id be glad to test it but so far iv not found a way....even with sword of the divine i get raped >_>
I SHALL KEEP THIS THREAD ALIVE GOSH DARN IT

play ashe, go ridiculous attack with a sword of the divine, ult stun, pray


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Wretch

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHAZAMBAM View Post
I SHALL KEEP THIS THREAD ALIVE GOSH DARN IT

play ashe, go ridiculous attack with a sword of the divine, ult stun, pray
Play Jax with this build, Hextech gunblade, ninja tabi, rageblade, and a phantom dancer, then ask yourself, what can possibly stop you...


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Bilun

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilikem View Post
btw if ANYONE would like to throw down an idea on how to counter jax, WITH A MELEE CHAMPION (ranged or not) id be glad to test it but so far iv not found a way....even with sword of the divine i get raped >_>

Jax is and always has always been one of the better 1v1 champion, especially since his buff. Don't try to 1v1 him as a phys DPS character; if he's been well fed don't try to 1v1 him at all.


Unless he gets super fed, you can expect maybe 300-400 extra hp from his passive mid-lategame. which translates to something along the lines of +15-20% max hp if he has no other health items.

2 casters can easily burst that down within a few seconds late game(if jax isn't far more fed then them). If you're short on casters that's what sword of the divine is for; most people don't seem to understand the point of sword of the divine against jax: it's not to 1v1 destroy him within 5 seconds, it's to allow you to use your full dps against him in a group encounter where multiple allies can easily burst down his hp in under that time if they can use their full DPS. and while not the best, it's not exactly a bad item for dps when not fighting dodgers(essentially 25 magic damager per attack average and the ability to also use the active for armour pen).


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kilikem

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretch View Post
Play Jax with this build, Hextech gunblade, ninja tabi, rageblade, and a phantom dancer, then ask yourself, what can possibly stop you...
exactly....


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kilikem

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilun View Post
Jax is and always has always been one of the better 1v1 champion, especially since his buff. Don't try to 1v1 him as a phys DPS character; if he's been well fed don't try to 1v1 him at all.


Unless he gets super fed, you can expect maybe 300-400 extra hp from his passive mid-lategame. which translates to something along the lines of +15-20% max hp if he has no other health items.

2 casters can easily burst that down within a few seconds late game(if jax isn't far more fed then them). If you're short on casters that's what sword of the divine is for; most people don't seem to understand the point of sword of the divine against jax: it's not to 1v1 destroy him within 5 seconds, it's to allow you to use your full dps against him in a group encounter where multiple allies can easily burst down his hp in under that time if they can use their full DPS. and while not the best, it's not exactly a bad item for dps when not fighting dodgers(essentially 25 magic damager per attack average and the ability to also use the active for armour pen).
usually there isnt 2 casters in a 3v3...but anyways 1v1 isnt even the problem 24/7....if u havnt noticed jax can easily 1v3 and 1v5 if fed.....tell me 1 other char in the game (besides trynd) that can do that?....and about bursting him down, on the chance u DONT kill him....if he has say a gunblade as soon as the CC is off he will kill u in 1-2 seconds while healing a ton, and then cause of his rageblade/ult effect he will just kill the second caster even faster....iv seen this done -.-


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Mr Voodooshoodoo

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilun View Post
Jax is and always has always been one of the better 1v1 champion, especially since his buff. Don't try to 1v1 him as a phys DPS character; if he's been well fed don't try to 1v1 him at all.


Unless he gets super fed, you can expect maybe 300-400 extra hp from his passive mid-lategame. which translates to something along the lines of +15-20% max hp if he has no other health items.

2 casters can easily burst that down within a few seconds late game(if jax isn't far more fed then them). If you're short on casters that's what sword of the divine is for; most people don't seem to understand the point of sword of the divine against jax: it's not to 1v1 destroy him within 5 seconds, it's to allow you to use your full dps against him in a group encounter where multiple allies can easily burst down his hp in under that time if they can use their full DPS. and while not the best, it's not exactly a bad item for dps when not fighting dodgers(essentially 25 magic damager per attack average and the ability to also use the active for armour pen).
well yeah it sorta sux when Jax requires a certain class to kill him, and also makes another class nearly worthless against him, but I catch what your saying in that its a team effort.
Also in my second game as Jax I laned against an annie and a cho, completely dominated them, but I did have to recall more often, it sucked for them because i would wait in the grass by myself, they would run over, I jump Annie, get a stun from annie,then cho, then jump again, stun annie, kill annie, simply outrun cho, btw has anyone mentioned his high move speed? how come he runs at 400 with movement speed 2? most go 380 :/ and poor tf goes 375.

Also same game a teemo stupid enough to try 1v1 me(he was fed in his lane i guess that was his reasoning) at first I don't even notice him for atleast 2 secs, then i turn around jump, w, stun, auto attack 2 death. Then im thinking ill finish off the minis over here....... BAM WW ults me and starts wailing on me, i pop ghost and try 2 run, i find out he hasnt done that much 2 me (passive ability) I turn around than auto attack him to death (with a stun)
That is a 100% true story I will sware on whatever you want


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Wretch

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilun View Post
Jax is and always has always been one of the better 1v1 champion, especially since his buff. Don't try to 1v1 him as a phys DPS character; if he's been well fed don't try to 1v1 him at all.


Unless he gets super fed, you can expect maybe 300-400 extra hp from his passive mid-lategame. which translates to something along the lines of +15-20% max hp if he has no other health items.

2 casters can easily burst that down within a few seconds late game(if jax isn't far more fed then them). If you're short on casters that's what sword of the divine is for; most people don't seem to understand the point of sword of the divine against jax: it's not to 1v1 destroy him within 5 seconds, it's to allow you to use your full dps against him in a group encounter where multiple allies can easily burst down his hp in under that time if they can use their full DPS. and while not the best, it's not exactly a bad item for dps when not fighting dodgers(essentially 25 magic damager per attack average and the ability to also use the active for armour pen).
Sword of the Divine is utter garbage. Any smart Jax will fight you with in a pile of minions, he will dodge one of them and you will get stunned when you pop SoD, giving you like 3 seconds to possibly dps him with out him dodging you. A gangplank might hit with 1 single parley before he melts.

The problem with SoD as a counter is that it doesnt function like a veil, where possibly 1 spell with a long ass cooldown is countered. SoD simply gives you 5 seconds to possibly hit a guy that can stun you anyway due to him dodging someone elses (minions) attacks and wasting your SoD active.

If SoD were a proper counter, it would, once activated, add a debuff to Jax that doesnt allow him to dodge for 4 seconds, thus countering his insane dodge. This method of using a SoD is related to Executioners calling and other such debuffs that counter healing. This also puts SoD inline with items such as starks, where having 1 per team is enough and not requiring every melee on your team to have an SoD simply to kill 1 guy on the other team.

IMO the dodge mechanic needs a complete rework. I believe if they put a dodge per second cap in place, jax would no longer be so **** OP vs a heavy melee team. I would say that no matter your dodge %, you should only be able to effectively dodge 1 attack per second. So if three players attack you at the same exact time, you should only be able to dodge 1 of those attacks OR they could add a positional factor when dealing with dodge and that being, if you strike from behind a target, they can not dodge.

One new factor effecting Dodge should be, if you can not see the attack coming, you can not dodge it!!! This means if you are stealthed, your attack should not be dodgeable...


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Phunbaba

Member

06-05-2010

You say his counter is a good nuker or magic. Guess what you don't see much of in TT?


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Bilun

Senior Member

06-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilikem View Post
usually there isnt 2 casters in a 3v3...
Well first off I do agree Jax is OP in 3v3. My entire balance assessment as assuming the default game type of 5v5. 3v3 has all sorts of additional balance problems.
Quote:
but anyways 1v1 isnt even the problem 24/7....if u havnt noticed jax can easily 1v3 and 1v5 if fed.....
Sorry, but if Jax 1v5ed you he either

A). had such a huge number of kills you deserved to lose anyway

or

B). your team was extremely uncoodinated

or

C). you're probably low ELO and weren't playing very well
Quote:
tell me 1 other char in the game (besides trynd)
You realize Trynd is widely regarded as one of the weakest champions in the game; that you're citing him as a 1v5 powerplayer implies option C listed above is likely the case.
Quote:
that can do that?....and about bursting him down, on the chance u DONT kill him....if he has say a gunblade as soon as the CC is off he will kill u in 1-2 seconds while healing a ton, and then cause of his rageblade/ult effect he will just kill the second caster even faster....iv seen this done -.-
He has a gunblade and a rageblade and you don't have the items between your team to burst him down? That's about 6k worth of items, 7.5k with ninja tabi. For that money he gains an extra 440 health(25% increase in help), combined with say 30% dodge thats essentially an extra 62.5% health vs physical and 30% vs magical damage.

With 5 people you have 5 champions worth of damage 500% damage. Even if he's fed and deals mroe damage then an individual, 5 of you will exceed his damage output by far more then 62.5%.

1v5 jax is mostly a myth perpetrated by bad/uncoordinated players. a feed jax 1v2 or 1v3ing a disorganized team maybe, but if you get 1v5ed by a jax you have no one but yousefl to blame


Quote:
Originally Posted by SHAZAMBAM View Post
well yeah it sorta sux when Jax requires a certain class to kill him, and also makes another class nearly worthless against him, but I catch what your saying in that its a team effort.
He doesn't require it. You just need it to be able to burst him down within the length of a CC with 2-3 people.

If your organized and your team has comprable kills to the enemy team, the combined damage output of 3-4 champions will far outstrip the mitigation given by his defenses.
Quote:
Also in my second game as Jax I laned against an annie and a cho, completely dominated them, but I did have to recall more often, it sucked for them because i would wait in the grass by myself, they would run over, I jump Annie, get a stun from annie,then cho, then jump again, stun annie, kill annie, simply outrun cho, btw has anyone mentioned his high move speed? how come he runs at 400 with movement speed 2? most go 380 :/ and poor tf goes 375.
Anecdotal evidence really fails to sway me. That said i would agree that jax has a pretty flat learning curve. He's extremely potent and doesn't require alot of practice to play well. This is why he dominates the low ELO . I'm not saying he's weak in other brackets; he's a top tier champion pretty much all throughout, but he only really reaches the level of domination I consider OP int he low ELO brackets.
Quote:

Also same game a teemo stupid enough to try 1v1 me(he was fed in his lane i guess that was his reasoning) at first I don't even notice him for atleast 2 secs, then i turn around jump, w, stun, auto attack 2 death. Then im thinking ill finish off the minis over here....... BAM WW ults me and starts wailing on me, i pop ghost and try 2 run, i find out he hasnt done that much 2 me (passive ability) I turn around than auto attack him to death (with a stun)
That is a 100% true story I will sware on whatever you want
again, anecdotal evidence. fromt he first part of your story though you sounded pretty fed. And being that the two enemies engaged you one at a time, rather then together, a fed melee carry beating them doesn't soundout of line(especially as they are both physical DPS, jax's specialty.

Though as stated above I agree Jax's stun should only be available after dodging a champion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretch View Post
Sword of the Divine is utter garbage. Any smart Jax will fight you with in a pile of minions, he will dodge one of them and you will get stunned when you pop SoD, giving you like 3 seconds to possibly dps him with out him dodging you. A gangplank might hit with 1 single parley before he melts.
Well first off I do agree that Counterstrike should only proc when jax dodges a champion; I do find it kind of silly that your own minions are only a liability.

Again though, it sounds like you're trying to 1v1 jax; which just isn't a good idea unless you're an equally fed faceroll caster.
Quote:
The problem with SoD as a counter is that it doesnt function like a veil, where possibly 1 spell with a long ass cooldown is countered. SoD simply gives you 5 seconds to possibly hit a guy that can stun you anyway due to him dodging someone elses (minions) attacks and wasting your SoD active.

If SoD were a proper counter, it would, once activated, add a debuff to Jax that doesnt allow him to dodge for 4 seconds, thus countering his insane dodge. This method of using a SoD is related to Executioners calling and other such debuffs that counter healing. This also puts SoD inline with items such as starks, where having 1 per team is enough and not requiring every melee on your team to have an SoD simply to kill 1 guy on the other team.
While I could see sword of the divine benefiting from an overhaul, this sort of thing seems a bit extreme. One 2000 gold item should not utterly negate some element of an opponent's character cost-free. Similar effects include(as you cited) executioners calling and also oracle elixers for stealth. The former constitutes a partial reduction(not complete) and the latter carries the risk of loss on death.

Personally I've long thought that sword of the divine should have it's active replaced with a unique passive that reduces the dodge chance/miss chance of all of your attacks by 1/3(33% of base value).
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IMO the dodge mechanic needs a complete rework. I believe if they put a dodge per second cap in place, jax would no longer be so **** OP vs a heavy melee team. I would say that no matter your dodge %, you should only be able to effectively dodge 1 attack per second. So if three players attack you at the same exact time, you should only be able to dodge 1 of those attacks OR they could add a positional factor when dealing with dodge and that being, if you strike from behind a target, they can not dodge.
And why specifically should dodge be treated differently then every other % damage reduction in the game? Does amour only reduce 1 attack per second? does MR?

Like it or not, by default if you have a melee focused team, dodge is a counter to your primary focus; you should be at something of a disadvantage. This is why it's beneficial to have a balanced team composition.
Quote:
One new factor effecting Dodge should be, if you can not see the attack coming, you can not dodge it!!! This means if you are stealthed, your attack should not be dodgeable...
This seems reasonable to me. But it's rather niche and really changes nothing besides the removal of dodging shaco crits. and perhaps 1 attack for twitch/teemo.