Looking for some mathcraft help with my Tristana runes

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koticgood

Senior Member

09-24-2011

Hi guys. I'm new to LoL, but very experienced in the genre. I tried a bunch of heroes, and I was pretty disappointed, until I found Tristana. She fits my style perfectly. I messed around with pretty much every straight AD build I could find, and I've pretty much solidified exactly what I want to go. I go dorans sword to start, recall back and hopefully have enough for second dorans + boots + some hp potions then tp back to lane, try and get zerkers + bf sword by the time tp is off cd, then a zeal. After the zeal, I just get whatever I have money for, but heading towards two dancers/infinity. Sometimes I'll get the infinity right after zeal if I have enough money when I recall back, a lot of times I just buy a second zeal. After that, it's thirster then last wish.

A few things about the build. I avoided dancer at first because the AS and MS seemed superfluous on a hero with an innate escape mechanism and a steroid AS skill. After the first time I tried phantom dancer, man, I realized how wrong I was. The MS is just absolutely dominant in the metagame I play in. So much so, that I tried a second phantom dancer, and fell in love with that as well. Secondly, as long as you are under the hard cap, there aren't diminishing returns on AS, and there is no such thing as too much. Granted, a ton of AS without damage is pointless, but the 68 dmg from two dorans, bf sword, and mastery is plenty to make use of as much AS as you can get, not to mention the last two items in the build have flat AD as their primary stat (60-100 from thirster, 40 from wish). A really cool thing I noticed is that even with two dancers, zerker greaves, and the AS mastery (the mastery might be bad, but I'm taking it), even with Q active, you are still under the hard cap, at 2.495 attacks per second or something like that. Anyways, I just can't stress enough how much the MS from zeals/dancers has changed my abilities with Tristana.

Now, as to the actual point of the topic. I am looking for some input on runes. Two dancers and IE leaves me at 87% crit chance with the mastery (if the game isn't a total stomp, it's really easy to get there and I get to 87% most of the time). So, there are some options:
8 marks of malice + 3 quints of malice puts me at 100.02% chance to crit. I like that. It is an extremely round number and getting to 100% crit with 8 marks and 3 quints seems pretty neat. Obviously the other mark and 18 seals/glyphs would be furor, to maximize the benefit of 100 crit.
The other two options are full furor, and full strength. Arpen isn't really an option for me, although I'm sure many of you will say it's the best. AD is for early game to get a nice 20+ dmg boost to let me relax and get every single last hit with ease and use that comfort to gain confidence and snowball into a beast. I'm not very good at theorycraft, so I'll just throw some stuff out there and hopefully someone can help me actually get it right.

DMG*crit chance%*crit dmg%

So, say for 170dmg, to judge the crit dmg runes

170*.87*.0223 = 3.3dmg per crit dmg rune

If I judge the AD runes, do I multiply them x 2.6 x .87for late game? (infinity edge + lethality). If so, an AD mark would be 2.14dmg per mark, plus the added bonus of having the .95 bonus at level 1.

For judging the crit chance runes, I multiply them by the crit dmg multiplier, right? So if I went the 100% crit route + the rest furor, it would be 13% (increased crit from runes) * X (crit dmg multiplier, probably something like 2.8 after seals/glyps/1mark). Then multiply that by whatever dmg you are at, and you get the effectiveness of the 13% crit?

Anyhow, like I said, I'm pretty new, and I'm saving up all my IP for tier 3 runes when I hit level 20, so any input/help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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ThePsyborg

Senior Member

09-24-2011

Crit damage runes are the single most useless runes in the game. For any level of armor and AD, you will get bigger crits with armor pen runes versus crit damage ones. And you'll get bigger non-crit hits too!

Anything other than armor pen on marks is bad.
Attack speed, dodge, or mana regen per level are the usual recommendations for seals. You're already so close to the cap that AS isn't needed. More armor pen wouldn't hurt. Neither would AD.
Magic resistance per level glyphs are virtually standard on ranged squishies for being...well, less squishy.
Movespeed, AD, and armor pen are your best choices for quints. Attack speed or HP regen (probably scaling) could also work.


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koticgood

Senior Member

09-25-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePsyborg View Post
Crit damage runes are the single most useless runes in the game. For any level of armor and AD, you will get bigger crits with armor pen runes versus crit damage ones. And you'll get bigger non-crit hits too!

Anything other than armor pen on marks is bad.
Attack speed, dodge, or mana regen per level are the usual recommendations for seals. You're already so close to the cap that AS isn't needed. More armor pen wouldn't hurt. Neither would AD.
Magic resistance per level glyphs are virtually standard on ranged squishies for being...well, less squishy.
Movespeed, AD, and armor pen are your best choices for quints. Attack speed or HP regen (probably scaling) could also work.
Thank you for the advice, especially about seals/glyphs. As for crit damage runes being "the single most useless runes," you might be right, looking at the math.

Crit% = 87% (like I said, I almost always get to 87%, unless the game is a total stomp, and this is a late comparison, obviously arpen is better early, but you said arpen is better even on crits and late game)
dmg = 170 (estimate)
armor = 60 (near average base), 160 (1 big armor item), 260 (frozen heart + thornmail ownage)
pre-rune crit dmg = 260% (lethality + infinity edge)
pre-rune arpen = 6 (mastery)

Runes:
crit damage increase = 13.38 (quints) + 20.07 (marks) = 33.45%
arpen = 9.99 (quints) + 14.94 (marks) = 24.94

dmg = 170*(0.87*2.6)*(100/154) = avg 249.7 dmg per attack, at 170ad vs 60armor
dmg with crit dmg runes = 170*(0.87*2.9345)*(100/154) = avg 281.9 dmg per attack
dmg with arpen = 170*(0.87*2.6)*(100/129.06) = 297.9 avg dmg per attack

So even with 87% crit, the arpen is still better.
1 crit with crit dmg runes = 170*(*2.9345)*(100/154) = 323.9dmg
1 crit with arpen runes = 170*(2.6)*(100/129.06) = 342.5dmg

So yeah, arpen obviously better, not even going to look at the other two armor levels.

I might just go straight AD instead of arpen though. Not getting any bonus damage at all against creeps (mastery covers them even after a few level ups) and towers is a bit hard to swallow.


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Stoneglacier

Member

09-25-2011

I know you feel like you're doing awesome with those phantom dancers, but you should really listen to yourself when you say "I know she has an AS steroid".

Grab Zeal early if you want a bit of MS, but grab the IE or bloodthirster before you finish it. And certainly don't buy two phantom dancers before your IE. Phantom dancers are EXPENSIVE! If you really like AS that much get a black cleaver


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koticgood

Senior Member

09-25-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneglacier View Post
I know you feel like you're doing awesome with those phantom dancers, but you should really listen to yourself when you say "I know she has an AS steroid".

Grab Zeal early if you want a bit of MS, but grab the IE or bloodthirster before you finish it. And certainly don't buy two phantom dancers before your IE. Phantom dancers are EXPENSIVE! If you really like AS that much get a black cleaver
Hmm, like I said, I often do get the IE before I finish the dancer. However, my most common situation is two dorans, zerkers, bf sword, two zeals, simply because of convenience and cheapness. And, it's not that I like AS so much, because frankly, I don't. I like the MS. The fact that it has two DPS attributes is what makes it viable. And to say that the AS is pointless is fallacious, two dorans + bf sword + runes +mastery (and often an IE before) is plenty of damage to mesh with the AS. Also, your recommendation is the very first thing I tried. The first 4 games I played Tristana, I went thirster-->IE-->black cleaver. Didn't work nearly as well.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

09-26-2011

Runes are really there to boost your early game. By endgame, the 500g value they provide pales in comparsion to your huge base stats and 10k worth of items. So you really want your runes to shine early.

Crit Runes are a DPS multipler. BUT, you start out with really bad DPS. Crit also costs almost twice as much (or provides half the value per rune). Hence it is pretty easy to calculate that going from 50 to 52 damage per hit is a lot better than getting 1% chance of critting with that 50. (1% chance of +50 dmg = 100% chance of 0.5 dmg statistically).
So crit runes are OUT due to lack of early effect.

Attack Speed is a loser too. Early game you get in hits periodically...you dont blast away. So AS gains aren't all that helpful.

AD is great for harass and last hits. A solid choice.

Armor Pen boosts the damage you already do. Basically it's another AD-boost effectively. It is the most efficient early on. COnsider a mix so you can get 10 armor penetration.
This ensures you deal full damage to creeps.
Doing 100% of 60 dmg to a creep is better than say 90% of 64 damage.



Hence I would recommend Armor Pen and Attack Damage for your Red runes and Quints. You can pick your desired yellow and blue runes.


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koticgood

Senior Member

09-26-2011

Thanks Warrrrax, your point about runes being an early game boost is well taken. I've decided to try arpen marks, flat ad quints, flat armor seals, and flat MR glyphs. I don't know about the creep part though, lol. Unless the Wiki is outdated, they start with 0 and gain 2 every 3 minutes, not to mention you already have 6arpen from masteries. So many people have said arpen is vital though, so I'll run arpen marks and flat ad quints.


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MuhGeeSher

Senior Member

09-26-2011

Ehh. I've played AD Tris and I got bored of it. so I tried AP, it was pretty fun 1 shotting squishies with ult.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

09-26-2011

Hmm yeah. I was probably thinking Jungle creeps. So if you start with 6 Apen, I guess you are kinda set for a while. I was not assuming one took the Apen but as Trist I suppose 21 offense would be common enough.
But the theory is that enemy champs only start with about 15 armor, plus maybe a bit of armor from runes/masteries. If you have a decent amount of armor pen, you can reduce their say 20/120 = 16.67% reduction of your damage to 0.
Even with 50 AD, that works out to +8.5 damage, which would be about the same as adding 10.5 AD.
If you assume 75 AD, you've gained a virtual 15.75 AD.

I can see a good case for AD too though for lasthitting, especially for Red if it was just a bit more efficient (compared to AS/APen effective gold-worth benefits per slot)


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koticgood

Senior Member

09-26-2011

Another question, now that I have my runes sorted out (arpen marks, flat ad quints, flat armor seals, flat mr glyphs), is it better to take the 5% exp or the 6mr, 6armor, and 1% dodge? It seems like a really hard choice, but if people don't take the 2% exp quints, I can't see 5% being better than 6mr, 6armor, and 1% dodge. I do run flash teleport (really like cleanse/ignite, but I just can't drop teleport or ignite), so the exp does benefit me even more, as I really only go to base when teleport is off-cd. So basically, I'm always in lane.