System fails

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Lolyourangry

Junior Member

06-02-2010

Just though you would like to know your system for matching people up in games is a big failure. I think you might actually know this but wanted to follow up with a post to verbalize it and see if you avoid responding with a logical reason as to why it would fail in such manner. According to the bad information you post it matches up players by an imaginary ELO and then groups them together factoring in things like pre-made groups. If this is the case I am wondering how my team that I was just put in was 3 level ones and the other team was 2 level 5s and a level 3. System failure or working as intended?


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R66Y

Senior Member

06-02-2010

Level is not indicative of skill. Someone can lose several games at the start and actually be ranked lower than a level 1 with no games played. Or they may win several games and trigger the anti-smurf protections. While I can't see the match record, I'd say likely working as intended.


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Fendral

Senior Member

06-03-2010

It is a difficult system to understand, and I haven't even come close to gripping it. Just know that the more you play the more appropriately placed you will be, unless those modifiers kick in. I can't tell you how many times my friends and I have been quite literally, "out of our league" because we tried to play together. It does expose you to new strategies and competitors, but be wary, the game does not get easier unless you become more skilled. Work hard at being an amazing player.


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Sparro

Senior Member

06-03-2010

More you play the better off you are

the more you win teh hard it gets

the more you lose the easier it gets

Iv noitced it takes about 300-500 games before you will find it places you well almost every game.

Then you get a streak and it takes 50 games to fix it >.>


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Lolyourangry

Junior Member

06-03-2010

I don't think you guys understand, partially because I should have added that on the other team after the match I was told how they had other accounts with characters upwards of level 30, also they had wins recorded. Me and both my teammates had zero wins. When the game started both my teammates took deaths to towers they were trying to kill which tells me they never even played DotA. So not working as intended when you have players with alternate accounts with level 30s whom already have wins all the way up to level 5 one was level 3 ofcourse but he had wins too and it stuck 3 people with no wins and were all level 1 on the same team...was the system not smart enough to give my team at least one of those level 5s to help balance it? could it not have at least given us the level 3 to help balance it? And before you say oh well maybe they all joined together so thats why they were put on the same team, then it shows opposite of what was posted which was pre made teams will face pug teams that are just a little better than them. It still stand correct the system fails. As a new player who is level 1 it makes me wonder if its even worth the effort to level a character in a game with a flawed match making system, the game is supposed to be there to have fun not to be frustrated because your stuck with level 1 leavers and level 1 players who don't even use special abilities against a team who could be deemed pro as they admitted to having a level 30 account as well.


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Ducktator

Member

06-03-2010

I have played a good bit now as I have more than 100 games played, and I willhave to agree with you that the match making system can sometimes be very rough. Normally I join que with a friend who invited me to the game and we have been put up against some teams that were much higher levels than us and had considerably more wins than us. Im talking about a large gap not just something little that makes up for being teamed together before we started que.
That being said there have been games we wiped the map with players we should not have been up against as they had not played nearly eneough and we just racked up kill after kill due to their inexpirence. It evens out sooner or later that you will get a game with some newbies that dont know anything and you will come out on top, butI agree the system could be better at match making.
I have always firmly believed that the only fair match making system relys off of kill to death ratio. You can lose every game you ever play and yet still have the most kills everygame showing your a strong player, you just might be getting double or triple teamed so you can defend a tower or mabey your getting back door'd. None the less although Riot will not release what factors into their system I hope that they too understand a players skill will always be shown by his kill death ratio.
Stick with it lolyourangry I am sure you will get some better games.


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R66Y

Senior Member

06-03-2010

1) Smurfs exists and there is no way to deal with them easily through MM. it sucks to get roflstomped by them, but they should generally weed themselves out within a few levels. MM is not omniscient and can't tell at account creation if the player is brand spanking new to the genre, had experience with other similar games, or a veteran of lol looking for some easy wins to stroke his ego. MM does have smurf detection and will boot players smurfing from newbie island if they are just facerolling newbs. Not sure what more Riot can do tbh.

2) The difference between level 1 and level 5 is about one solid afternoon of play. You will level just about every win up to that point. I do think there is a bit of an issue once you leave newbie island around level 12 and end up paired against actual 30s (which can happen if you are good), until you leave newbie island this isn't a problem. The ingame difference between level 1 and level 5 is negligible.

3) It takes, sometimes, upwards of 100+ games to acurately judge your playing skill from my own experience (some people are much faster, some a bit slower, it really depends on the player). Frankly, until you hit level 30, you are learning the game anyways and your skill is likely to change as you improve.

4) K/D/A is a horrible statistic to base skill rankings on. Riot only uses Wins/Losses in their system. I've seen terrible players get very high kills and few deaths in games and cost their team a win, and good players get few to no kills and several deaths and be one of the most important cogs in their team. This has been discussed several times in the forums (Just do a forum search, there was a thread within the past week or two on this) and Riot and most of the top players agree that KDA has no place in skill ranking.

just a couple of things to keep in mind about the Elo system
- Everyone starts off at the same rating, meaning early games are wildly unpredictable
-There is a lot of noise that MM has to work through to determine your skill, meaning a lot of games are required to be accurate. It gets better the more games you play.
-There will always be bad games unfortunately. Players have bad days, try new champions, get carried up in Elo through blind stupid luck, and AT with friends of vastly different skill. All of these can lead to bad games, and no matchmaker in the world is going to solve this.

If you are really curious about Elo rankings, I'd suggest reading up on it (some math knowledge really helps to understand how it works). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system


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Lolyourangry

Junior Member

06-03-2010

Quote:
1) Smurfs exists and there is no way to deal with them easily through MM
Smurfs show themselves by going in and facerolling the truely new players, if you think about this it would mean they have a high K/D not even including the A ratio. This is where K/D ratio plays an important factor in leveling out new players from smurfs. Can someone get luck and get the last shot and seem to have a high K/D ratio? yes however to have it happen every game either means they arenot new and playing that as a strat or they will not be getting a lucky last shot and retain a high K/D ratio. No matter how you look at it K/D ratio tells the story. As was said before unless you get back door'd having a high K/D ratio shows dominence.

Quote:
2) The difference between level 1 and level 5 is about one solid afternoon of play
So suddenly in one afternoon everyone can get to level 5? Are we assuming only hardcore gamers play this? So for what your saying to be accurate I have to play a whole afternoon, meaning the casual player who has more to do than game all afternoon shouldnt be able to join a game and get properly matched up? Oh wait casual players can be ranked rather easily off K/D ratio.

Quote:
3) It takes, sometimes, upwards of 100+ games to acurately judge your playing skill from my own experience
So from your expierence I shouldhave to play around 100 games at 30 mins to an hour a game before I can be matched up properly and start to have fun with evenly matched game? this makes alot of sense, oh wait your hardcore gamer 100 games is what a week?

Quote:
4) K/D/A is a horrible statistic to base skill rankings on
K/D ratio will always be a good tool to use when matching players up. When was the last game you saw an entire team on one side go 10 and 0 each and the other side go 0 and 10 each and the guys with 0 and 10 win. Thats right it doesnt happen that way. Before you come in and blast away at how horrible an idea is you need to consider whats being posted and think about what your writing. I never said K/D ratio should be the only factor in a match making system but it should have a huge impact.Saying 100 game to as many as 300 games is what it takes to make things even and fair is wild and ubsurd. Again looking thru the eyes of a hardcore gamer 100 - 300 games may be nothing but from people who have jobs, families, and lives other then sitting in front of a game all day it is very unfair. This game is marketed to everyone not just hardcore gamers therefore it is my request for Riot to attempt to make the front end of the game more fair for those who will not be racing straight to whatever the top level is. K/D ratio can help on the front end to discourage smurfs and even the field out, the higher your level goes the less dependent K/D can become for the system.


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Keeza

Senior Member

06-03-2010

well, no system is perfect, specially since you just started the game, theres no way for the matchmaking system to accurately judge how good you're going to be, specially if you're someone who has played dota, you should know that even if you put 10 people in a game where they all are playing their very first LoL game, there will be a vast discrepancy in their skill.

It doesn't really take 100 games for the system to have an idea of how good you are, but it definitely takes more than 1....don't look at levels as a basis of skill, you can be the absolute worst player in the game, and lose every single one of your games...ever....and still get to level 30, that would effectively make you worst than a fresh level 1.

lol is a fun game, don't expect to rack off 20 wins in a row when u just started playing it, because there will always be smurfs, like it or not, in every game. so just focus on playing, learning, and having fun, after enough games you will be matched with people around your skill level and the games will be a lot more fun.


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R66Y

Senior Member

06-03-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolyourangry View Post
Smurfs show themselves by going in and facerolling the truely new players, if you think about this it would mean they have a high K/D not even including the A ratio. This is where K/D ratio plays an important factor in leveling out new players from smurfs. Can someone get luck and get the last shot and seem to have a high K/D ratio? yes however to have it happen every game either means they arenot new and playing that as a strat or they will not be getting a lucky last shot and retain a high K/D ratio. No matter how you look at it K/D ratio tells the story. As was said before unless you get back door'd having a high K/D ratio shows dominence.
A smurf that is facerolling that hard is going to win games and be picked up by the anti-smurf protections in MM. Kills are not the point of the game, winning by destroying the nexus is. I've won plenty of games where the enemy killed us at a rate of 2 for 1 or better the entire game. I've seen plenty of players go 20+/2/10 and be completely worthless to their team and lose.

To get away from anecdotal evidence though, Riot has looked at using KDA in their MM. What they found was that it had no statistical correlation with winning or skill outside of a hard carry! This is not just BS I am making up, this has been investigated and found to be worthless.

but go ahead and keep disagreeing with me...
and Riot....
and the mathematician they hired to help design their MM....
and most of the top players....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolyourangry View Post
So suddenly in one afternoon everyone can get to level 5? Are we assuming only hardcore gamers play this? So for what your saying to be accurate I have to play a whole afternoon, meaning the casual player who has more to do than game all afternoon shouldnt be able to join a game and get properly matched up? Oh wait casual players can be ranked rather easily off K/D ratio.
Like most games, levels are not even. Level 2 is your first win (or 2 losses), level 3 is likely going to be by game 3-4. you can hit 5 in one day easy. If you were to play over a few days (say 2-3 games a day), with the first win of the day bonus you'll likely hit 5 on day 3.

Last smurf I started i think I have a whooping 14 games on and am level 7. most people seem to hit the upper teans or even lower twenties within a week or two.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolyourangry View Post
So from your expierence I shouldhave to play around 100 games at 30 mins to an hour a game before I can be matched up properly and start to have fun with evenly matched game? this makes alot of sense, oh wait your hardcore gamer 100 games is what a week?
100 games is when you'll be getting those games regularly, but that's not a hard rule and it doesn't mean you won't have epic games earlier. Your Elo just tends to fluctuate more at lower level so you see a few more steamrolls earlier on. you are also currently on Newbie island, which means there is a great chance of playing with new people that really don't know what they are doing, leading to bad games. Most people report skill levels of their teams and opponents jump noticeably when they leave newbie island (level 13 I believe).

Also, if you do have DotA experience, you'll tend to settle in more rapidly as there is less of a learning curve that you will need to go through and Elo would need to compensate for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolyourangry View Post
K/D ratio will always be a good tool to use when matching players up. When was the last game you saw an entire team on one side go 10 and 0 each and the other side go 0 and 10 each and the guys with 0 and 10 win. Thats right it doesnt happen that way. Before you come in and blast away at how horrible an idea is you need to consider whats being posted and think about what your writing. I never said K/D ratio should be the only factor in a match making system but it should have a huge impact.Saying 100 game to as many as 300 games is what it takes to make things even and fair is wild and ubsurd. Again looking thru the eyes of a hardcore gamer 100 - 300 games may be nothing but from people who have jobs, families, and lives other then sitting in front of a game all day it is very unfair. This game is marketed to everyone not just hardcore gamers therefore it is my request for Riot to attempt to make the front end of the game more fair for those who will not be racing straight to whatever the top level is. K/D ratio can help on the front end to discourage smurfs and even the field out, the higher your level goes the less dependent K/D can become for the system.
See my above comments on using K/D. I'd love a better method of ranking people early, but K/D is not the way to go.

Also, it took me 4 months to get to level 30. This is working a full time job and spending nearly 2 of those months living out of hotels where i couldn't play at all.


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