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AP needs better Dominion items

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SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

09-22-2011

Quote:
Protip: Dominion meta =/= SR meta.

Your builds from SR aren't going to work on Dominion, nor will the same kind of builds.

Backing takes 5 seconds, by the time you factor in running down the stairs, 10 seconds, and it's what, an additional 20 seconds to cross the map?

As someone else said, stop trying to build for sustain in a game mode that is about bursting. Build for burst damage. People are stacking health/mana because the goal is to survive a burst and counter burst, then back and repeat.

You don't need a tear. You don't need an RoA. You need Rylai's. You need prospectors. You might have to actually pick up a hard tank item, and then fill the rest out with lich/deathcap/tome/etc.

I've seen AP do JUST fine on CS -- you're just doing it wrong.

It's not an issue of damage, it's more of an issue that mages have the worst mobility options on the game. A mage can't get to a fight in time to make much of a difference when you compare it to DPS rocking Phantom Dancer and tanks and tanky dps using Force of Nature.

There needs to be a new mid-tier Dominion item for mages that builds out of Haunting Guise.


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Darxio

Member

09-22-2011

Quote:
Jibril13:
and as soon as you back, the point you were just defending gets captured


You back when you have killed the enemy. They can't cap it if they are dead unless they have revive, in which case you just burnt their revive which has an insanely long cooldown.

Keep in mind, Rod of Ages is still viable in Dominion when gotten early, since it's got plenty of what you want on a mage to survive and keep up in a burst match(AP, Mana, and HP).

At your two closest points, do NOT be afraid to recall. At the other three, you should recall based on the conditions at the time. Think on your feet and adapt to the situation. If that's too complex for you, just play Rammus.

Until they give makes an AP and movespeed item that isn't Lich Bane, there isn't anything for us. Though perhaps with the increased gold gain, mages that shouldn't get lich bane may want to grab it anyway... needs to be tested when dominion pops up next time if they don't want to give us an AP+Movespeed item.


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SquirrelCommando

Senior Member

09-22-2011

Quote:
SoBeNirvana:
It's not an issue of damage, it's more of an issue that mages have the worst mobility options on the game. A mage can't get to a fight in time to make much of a difference when you compare it to DPS rocking Phantom Dancer and tanks and tanky dps using Force of Nature.

There needs to be a new mid-tier Dominion item for mages that builds out of Haunting Guise.


There needs to be an item that builds out of haunting guise for sure. But I disagree about the Hextech Sweeper being garbage thing, as it retains vision on people who try to juke you in the middle, as well as being good against stealth. Further, with champions like Akali and Eve actually being popular, it's a valuable item.

All that said, could we do something along the lines of a Warmogs of mana in place of Tear? I think mana is one of the biggest issues people are going to have with casters, besides mobility and survivability.

As for AP characters, has anyone tried LeBlanc? I've seen Akali and Fiddle wrecking shop, and early money sounds just like what a LeBlanc needs. Could also see Kennen doing well. Anivia's wall is good, Orianna would be good if she had mana to spam her W, Malz is an insane duelist and pusher, Poppy can be built AP to great effect, Katarina's passive may be OP here, AP Teemo's shrooms are going to wreck people, Vlad is incredibly sustainable, the idea of Magewick is really intriguing to me atm, etc.

I agree that there are some new items that need to exist for AP, but I really think people need to play it more without the expectations that what works in SR will work in Dominion.

EDIT: Another thing is that, since teamfights aren't going to be Galio, Amumu, and Morg all ulting you together, you can get boots of mobility / swiftness and get away with it.


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SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

09-22-2011

Quote:
As for AP characters, has anyone tried LeBlanc? I've seen Akali and Fiddle wrecking shop, and early money sounds just like what a LeBlanc needs. Could also see Kennen doing well. Anivia's wall is good, Orianna would be good if she had mana to spam her W, Malz is an insane duelist and pusher, Poppy can be built AP to great effect, Katarina's passive may be OP here, AP Teemo's shrooms are going to wreck people, Vlad is incredibly sustainable, the idea of Magewick is really intriguing to me atm, etc.


There are two kinds of mages that do well on Dominion - high mobility mages like Akali, Le Blanc, Kennen and area denial mages like Anivia. The others just feel meh to me, at least in my limited experience playing against them. If you didn't have a mobility spell or an area denial spell I could safely ignore you for the most part, in Dominion, because anyone with mobility can just run the hell away from you without much repercussion.


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Bergtau

Senior Member

09-22-2011

They honestly could just leave Deathcap as it is given there is an item that does the exact same thing for AD called Infinity Edge.


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Thrackerzod

Senior Member

09-22-2011

Quote:
Garzek:
Protip: Dominion meta =/= SR meta.

Your builds from SR aren't going to work on Dominion, nor will the same kind of builds.

Backing takes 5 seconds, by the time you factor in running down the stairs, 10 seconds, and it's what, an additional 20 seconds to cross the map?

As someone else said, stop trying to build for sustain in a game mode that is about bursting. Build for burst damage. People are stacking health/mana because the goal is to survive a burst and counter burst, then back and repeat.

You don't need a tear. You don't need an RoA. You need Rylai's. You need prospectors. You might have to actually pick up a hard tank item, and then fill the rest out with lich/deathcap/tome/etc.

I've seen AP do JUST fine on CS -- you're just doing it wrong.

On what little AP I run, I build for burst definitely. But AP's items largely suck for Dominion from lack of mobility and just not having enough AP at all.


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Talamare

Senior Member

09-22-2011

./support


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2bitmarksman

Member

09-22-2011

Dominion Item equivilents I'd like to see added to make AP more viable:

Cheaper, weaker version of Deathcap
Cheaper version of will of the ancients, but with HP or MPen or armor (hextech revolver + haunting guise?)
Decently priced HP + AP + armor item (not just a cheaper version of hourglass)
More expensive version of Sheen, but Adds 40% (or so) of your total AP to your next 2 basic attacks.
New item - Expensive item that adds AP and CD reduction with a unique passive: Your offensive spells will burn the target for 3% of their HP as true damage over 6 seconds, stacks twice.

But most definitely: Moderate-Expensive item that adds AP and movement speed.

The biggest drawback in this fast paced type of play is that AP casters are so much slower than any other AD/tanky champ that can use phantom/trinity/force of nature, making them inable to catch them, and inable to run away from them. Its almost cruel as a brolaf, running straight into morgana and melt her face under her turret


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GrimoireM

Senior Member

09-23-2011

Casters could use a movespeed item that is more catch all then lichbane, but I can't think of any that wouldn't end up broken on the more mobile champions. It should probably reward kiting, and pushing in some manner, perhaps a steroid that is refreshed by using as many of your abilities as you can, so that the cooldown is mitigated somewhat?

For the mana reliant champions, I'd rather RoA be changed to have better base stats, no scaling over time, and give a mana restore active so that they're not fighting for health pick ups just to defend a point.

Any thoughts on bringing back Zhonya's Ring in Dominion? The split with Deathcap and Hourglass makes both items feel iffy to rush at any point, so it would help.

I do agree with additional nukes. DFG is amazing, but I'd like to be rewarded for using my combo and use it to finish off people. Could there be an dominion equivalient that scales off of missing health instead?


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Thrackerzod

Senior Member

09-23-2011

Quote:
SoBeNirvana:
There are two kinds of mages that do well on Dominion - high mobility mages like Akali, Le Blanc, Kennen and area denial mages like Anivia. The others just feel meh to me, at least in my limited experience playing against them. If you didn't have a mobility spell or an area denial spell I could safely ignore you for the most part, in Dominion, because anyone with mobility can just run the hell away from you without much repercussion.

Thing is, by that logic Oriana should feel powerful on Dominion. She doesn't. She's got a movable chunk of area denial (the Ball) on a very short cooldown, but she's just too easily wrecked. Probably because she can only deny one area, though. Anivia also doesn't feel too strong in Dominion, but definitely playable.