Winning team is invincible to point loss

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Iojiki

Junior Member

09-23-2011

IMO, it should only stop draining if it's 2-2 on caps. That's what I was under the impression of when I first read about dominion. This way, at 3-2, even if your team was losing before, you will eventually pass the losing team, yet the losing team will still feel like they have some impact to the game.


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Karandor

Adjudicator

09-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by MehtaMezhan View Post
Again, I strongly disagree.
You're telling me you never simply had an unlucky fight under a turret and lost a cap?

And a team should be rewarded for capping, no doubt about it.
My argument here is that because of these bad mechanics, the effect is far too strong.

There's not much luck in dominion. The way you break a 3 cap is going for the point in the midde to distract and then powering down the windmill or quarry/boneyard.

I've been the victim of only a single big comeback and it was due to our xin building glass cannon so that it was basically 4v5.

Most games where my teams gets ahead we stay way ahead. A big part of this is learning the proper item builds for the map. In general the item builds from SR are not that great on CS. Once people understand how to build properly for dominion and understand the tactics more I think we'll see more close games and less comebacks.


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Fiendish x Codex

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Junior Member

09-23-2011

I'm not sure if it was a glitch or something but on the first day of beta, i noticed that when my team, or even the enemy team was down to 12-15 points, it wouldn't get any lower if the the opposing team had 3 of the 5 towers. In order for it to go any lower they had to get a 4th tower. In all honesty i really liked it as it allowed either team to make a huge comeback. Of course this may have kept the game from being consistently fast pace, but it would allow for the losing team a much better chance at having that awesome feeling you get when make a huge comeback. But as I said before, it might have been a glitch/bug, albeit a nice one.


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Cymril

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Member

09-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMarshun View Post
agreed as well.

there really should be a mechanic to loose points per death (maybe based on how many points you control? more cp more point loss per death? -2 when cp >= 3 and -1 otherwise?)

although the main reason i feel this way is not because of matches where it goes 300-40 when the other team just has better defense of their 3 points. the reason is because death has become meaningless in dominion.
It adds to your score if you die as a "Martyr" which is not helpful IMO, a lot of the time i just find myself suicide diving a point or enemy. I end up dying but i accomplish two possible things: I either kill an enemy, freeing up the cp for my slower teammates to cap, or i dont kill anyone and delay the advance(or capture if suiciding my own loosing cp) of the enemy so the team can catch up.

Normally in SR i have a very nice KD of usually 4:1 on a carry. in Dom i tend to have a 1:3 KD since it doesnt matter if i die as long as the team is in the right positions to take advantage of my death.
I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

All the things you mention can help your team, if you don't just blindly rush into a group of enemies when no one else is around, and trying to 'farm' score this way isn't any different from intentionally feeding. And you only get the 40 points for dying a "Martyr" if you die standing on a control point, yours or the enemy. This is to promote exactly what you said above, slow down a cap with your corpse if you have to, so your team can catch up for defense.

K/D/A doesn't matter in SR/TT, and it matters even LESS in Dominion. That's why the scoring system was added, to reward players for doing (hopefully) helpful actions that assist in your team winning. With the short death timer, xp over time and paltry gold reward for champion kills (100 if they weren't on a killing spree) dying doesn't hinder your team like in any other mode, and as soon as you respawn and can get back out into the map, most of the advantage they gained by you being dead has been erased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MehtaMezhan View Post
I strongly disagree.
If you're holding majority turrets for most of the game, have a strong point lead, and momentarily lose majority rule... how is that not "doing well"?

I feel like "amazing comebacks" are interesting, just in some cases not warranted. Consider fun versus anti-fun: sure, it's great to make a huge comeback, but how frustrating is it for the opposing who had a strong lead, yet lost the entire match due to (say) an unlucky fight?

Maybe I'm alone in this, but it feels bananas to go from a score like 300-60 to 0-60.
This happened 2-3 times in the six (or so) games I tried yesterday.

That felt arbitrary, and really turned me off on the game mode.
Now reverse the situation. Your team is down 60-300, and you manage to take a third point. As the enemy comes to reclaim the point, your team shows up and you manage 3-4 kills without a loss. You push this advantage by capping another point. After that, your team gets it together and you manage to eek out a victory when you thought you had lost.

I had one game, we were doing really well, up by about 200 health, as the last of the enemy nexus health was ticking away, they managed to neutralize one of our points while they had 1 health left and cap it. We won, but the final score was something like 45-0. We felt we had the victory cinched, and we got complacent, and paid for it. We where spread out, and they got together and picked us off individually, and used that time grab 5 points. We capped two, but every time we neutralized a point they would do the same to ours. It was the most intense and rewarding match of Dominion of the ~10 I've played so far, and it never would have happened if champion deaths took off health at <100. (which further makes death largely meaningless outside of the advantage that can gained with one fewer player on the opposing team).


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SomeoneRandom

Member

09-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by MehtaMezhan View Post
This post is confusing and a little insulting, seeing as I've played... all of those games.
I'm well aware of the "capture and hold" gameplay; perhaps you didn't read my original post thoroughly?

Maybe I wasn't clear, but my point was that said gameplay could be improved.
Telling me that I'm just not cut out for this game mode is a little juvenile...

I read through all of your posts in here... and it actually feels like you are just not listening... There have been some solid reasonings that have been thrown at you and you just shrug them off and say they never read your post... well turns out they have...

Even a Red post told you how the game works... I have played around 13-14 games so far and have only lost 3, one of which we had a DC'd player and almost won anyways... The main difference as everyone has pointed out is the fact that you aren't constantly bleeding points, which is one of the best features possible and I commend riot for thinking of this...

Looking back to Arathi Basin which a lot of people are comparing this too, almost every player had the mod that told them how the game was going to end if the current state kept up, and how many points you needed to cap to win before you lost, this meant that after a certain point you "gave up", once that scale tipped to you needing 4 points to win, you may as well concede... there is no point, this leads to a good 10-20% of the game where nobody cares about anything and people just zerg for honor etc.

As the Rioter who posted here said, if you won it was because you controlled the 3+ points for the majority amount of time, and in fact because of the lack of bleeding out, there is even LESS luck involved, no longer can you ninja cap a 4th point for 30 seconds, and have it win you the game gaurenteed because of the lead you got, you have to be the better team FOR THE WHOLE GAME....

tl;dr: Your point was clear, and people have hit the nail on the head, you might not be cut out for this game mode. Or you need to play a hell of a lot more.


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The Unhealer

Member

09-23-2011

Had a 5v5 game in which we were losing like 10 to 260 or something and we turned it around, because of extreme quality gameplay shown at the time of crisis, if we were to lose 2 per kill they could have won even with less control of the map and in general poor play at the end.

Think of it like this, goal of the game is to control more bases, not to kill people, so we should not lose for achieving the goal of the game, furthermore, some champions are better then others at start, but as game goes on, these 'carries" become stronger and stronger, so the early advantage goes away and scales shift towards the other team's favor and they should lose because they got better late game champs?


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VictoryGarenteed

Member

09-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozrael View Post
I personally think I'd vastly prefer this style, although I'll admit I didn't play on the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeoneRandom View Post
Even a Red post told you how the game works...
Not sure how you think a Riot poster's opinion = "telling you how the game works." Or how that magically makes disagreement unacceptable.

As someone who played WoW Arathi Basin, I thought the mechanics (and the mod) made perfect sense, and was fun! If you need a four-cap to win, that's because you were doing terrible the whole match! A come-back should be hard at that point (and they DID happen, it just takes good teamwork).


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Ragnar Draconus

Senior Member

09-23-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozrael View Post
This I actually feel is also beneficial. That last quarter (125) points when ONLY controlling a dominating portion of points will win you the game is crucial. It stops simple attrition of flipping a point back and forth from ending the game in the current winners' favor. They need to have a clear advantage to win. It's kind of like in tennis - you need to win by 2.
I certainly understand the thinking behind it, but to be honest the only reason I know about this particular rule is because I read the forums. It is very frustrating trying to get your team to capture and hold the last three points when they believe getting a few kills at the very end will accomplish the same task.

"lol noob kills lower nexus hp." Still fun, but could have been a win.


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Onisake

Senior Member

09-23-2011

there is a lot of strategic value to whom you pick. I've found heavy AP teams do very well early. but fall off 'late game'

the powercreep on AD champs is huge because of crit. Tryndamere is incredibly powerful in the chaos, because of the general lack of CC. countering a champ like trynd takes a bit of setup. and more than often, more than 2 people. (with some exceptions) giving him a huge advantage in dominion.

Champs like Udyr can start off relatively slow, but enter near-god mode when built correctly.

a champ like blanc is good at all stages of the game. but lacks the mobility and survivibility to really ninja turrets.

after release we'll start seeing strategies and broken team comps. you need a balance of early game and late game champs. it's not as clear cut and we haven't had that much time to experiment yet.

TL;DR: heavy AD teams have an intense powercreep.


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The Confused

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Senior Member

09-23-2011

I feel like you just had a bad team. I've been in a game where we won at the last minute with 3-0, thats 3 nexus health to their 0. I've been in plenty of shutouts and "epic" comebacks (down 200 points to win it). Right now I feel like many people are ignoring the fact that they can push a minion wave (yes those exist in dominion), and have the minions cap a tower as you fight off advancing enemy champions.