Why Lee Sin is NOT overpowered

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Iced Nova

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09-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0Splicer0 View Post
Sorry wth did I just read?

Completely childish and desperate from the OP.

Lee's Q is a skill shot, and not only that, his skill shot is a double hit close gap, comparing it to any other skill shot other is like saying Ezreal's ult and Ashe's ult are the same, and ANY skill shot is vital to success, it's not like Lux or Morganna can kill everyone just because they missed their bind.

Point 2 is just ridiculous and pathetic, it's only there to fill the space right?

Point 3 is just another ridiculously obvious thing, only stupid noobs will ult someone at first hit with Lee sin. It's like using Vayne's condemn without being close to a wall.

You want decisions? Go play 2x1 LeBlanc or any other that isn't hit Q, "The enemy has been slain."
1.Lee's Q is 2 hits, yes. But its not 1 300 damage hit and another 300 damage hit.

At max rank its 170 +bonus AD then the second is 170 + Bonus ad + 10% of missing health.

And it's all physical, If Lee is destroying you, BUILD ARMOR, JUST LIKE YOU WOULD AGAINST ANY OTHER AD.

2. If lee just spams spells without Auto-attacking at all, He'll be completely Energy starved, Even with blue buff, And in a 1v1, And Teamfights where you have the chance to actually hit people that are committed to a fight, Auto-attacking between spells is Crucial to actually having energy to use your spells again.

3.This is League of Casuals, "stupid noob" is a lot of people. have you played Normals at all?


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ironpot

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by bourbonowns View Post
This.

Ezreal requires at least twice the skill to play than Caitlyn or Tristana, yet he deals less damage than them even when played optimally.

If being hard to play means you get to deal more damage, I expect huge Ezreal buffs in the future.
ezreal is scheduled for buffs already riot has said so


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THATZGOLD

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReLaTiviT View Post
Seeing the community have back and forth talks about the strength of Lee Sin, I have decided to give and explain my personal thoughts.

Now, I'm not some Gold/Platinum Tournament player, and I will not pose as such.

Main Point 1:
Lee Sin is extremely reliant on his Q (skillshot) for both gap closing AND damage

Having 1 skill completely hit or miss a kill is very important in my reasoning of why Lee Sin, is not overpowered. There are few other champions so reliant on 1 ability, the ones I can think of are:
Blitzcrank's Grab
Brand's Sear
Ezreal's aiming

Even in those 3 skills, only Blitzcrank's Grab truly is as game-making as Lee Sin's Q.

Basically, the mechanical skill required to consistently land your Q's is vital to success, skill should be rewarded.


Main Point 2:
Lee Sin must balance burst with his passive to be successful.

This sort of tradeoff requires a high amount of tactical skill;
Should I Q, hit twice or Q again immediately?
I've just E'd, should I hit them, or should I E again for slow?
I'm in a close 1v1, I just W'd, should I W again to get the bonus regen or should I take advantage of the AS?

These types of choices in ability use takes tactical skill.

Main Point 3:
Lee Sin must use his ult strategically, as it is useful for a wide variety of situations.

Dragon's Rage can be used to:
Execute low-HP enemies
Push back dangerous enemies
Save Allies
Push a important target toward your team

In addition to the many uses of his ult, there are also intracacies that give huge reward when properly used:
The line nuke it causes, requires AIM. Was used in tournament by AD carry Lee Sin
The Knock-up line it causes, requires AIM and balance between hitting multiple targets and hitting the optimal knockback.
How far the ult is; knocking back over walls

Lee's Ult has a HUGE amount of decision making and thought involved.

Conclusion:
While Lee Sin is strong, the huge amount of Mechanical, Tactical, and Strategic skill required to use him is enormous.
Just the skill needed to properly use his Ult rivals many champion kits.

I believe that this huge prerequisite demands reward, we've all seen the FOTM Lee Sins who do miserably.

Lee Sin is strong, but NOT overpowered due to the skill required to use him.
I agree, every-time i see someone say that he's OP I take a look at LoLstats (accurate, i know) and I see the win / losses for Lee Sin in 2k elo. Not impressed at all. A blatently OP champ would have a much better W/L ratio.


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Iced Nova

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09-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kailkenage View Post
I think you missed the point regarding this kit, I never said anything about ganking I was talking about escaping a gank, I'm still waiting for another character that can use his whole kit to get out of one.

The total combined damage of this abilities is a good measure of how much damage we can do in a burst, besides it only requires you to land Q then Q again E and R and presto! you got 1,140 damage plus 4 times you attack bonus, and then you get out of there right away with W.

High burst, high mobility and high survivability. A champ should not be able to do all three, just look at his synergy with the METAGOLEM build, he is a Tanky DPS we all get that, but again just look at the rest of the champions, he is definitely the Tanky DPS with the highest mobility, is that OK?, specially since he still have a very respectable damage end game.
He doesn't have High Burst and High Survivability in the Mid-game, He has to choose between Safeguard or Tempest, which is his Survivability and Burst.

Also, Jumping in to E then Ult then run away is plain dumb unless you're actually ensuring a kill, and we're also talking level 16+ Numbers, Where 1k is only about half of someone's health, assuming they arent glass cannon.


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crank my shaft

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Lee Sin is the most common ban at high elo. Any above average player can play a strong lee sin. If he isn't OP then why do all the pros ban him? He just does so much. Your argument is a bad player will fail with lee sin. Although this may be true, that bad player will play lee sin for another 20 to 30 games and then rape the other team.


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Bland

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaeoz View Post
No you see Riot does this thing where they have "baseline champions" that is champions who they believe are the pinnacle of balance.

As far as I know they used to be:

Annie - Mage (Before the rework)
Rammus - Tank (Around Sept 2010)
Ashe - AD Carry
Janna - Support


So essentially what I'm saying is that Champion B represent these "Baseline" champions... problem with lee sin is that he far exceeds every other jungler in almost EVERY SINGLE FACET. In almost 90% of situations, picking a leesin would be better than picking any other jungler because he is JUST that powerful compared to other champions/junglers at his max potential... He can give your AP carry blue buff at ANY TIME..., ridiculous gank at level 2. crazy fast jungle clear, really strong burst (good jungle control) and really good sustain (W), and crazy mobility.


Being able to play a champion is a very very very small part of what a high elo player can do... most people are high elo because they know WHAT to do and WHEN to do it. If you have the tactical prowess of a high elo player... you're practically 90% there and just have to play support 100% of the time while leading your team.

Also, riot has said that they don't mind any champion being UNDERPOWERED at certain elos (Xin Zhao in high elo, Eve/Shaco/Twitch in mid/high elos, orianna in low elo). Its not DESIREABLE, but its lesser of two evils rather than having a champion be OP in a certain elo range.
Ok, let me put it differently...
Would you think it would be fun playing a game where all players in both teams have exactly the same hero who doesn't have skills and can only right-click? Obviously now it would be balanced, and the tactical skills would be the thing that wins the game.
Ok, this is a little bit exaggerated, but I think you get my point. Putting it simple: Being versatile make the game funner to play.

That's why I'm saying that skillcaps should basically be higher... I'd like all champions to be able to do what he can do (not literally, skillwise... just in regards to the power) if he's played well.
See, what makes him so fun to play isn't necessarily his power, but his set of skills and linked with that his skilllcap. He is incredibly dynamic, he's versatile... And as I explained, if you nerf him now, give it some time and he will end up losing his dynamic playstyle to make him easier to use, so he's on par with other champs. And I don't want that to happen.

Let's exaggerate again: Imagine a game with 10 "Lee Sins"... different skills and stuff, but versatile and tricky to use... Wouldn't you want to play that game?

It's a large challenge to balance a game that has champions with high skill caps, but I'd rather have Riot take the challenge instead of simplifying everything to the extent that I could just be playing chess (I like playing chess about as much as playing LoL... but out of different reasons, and I'd like those to stay different reasons)


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StrengthAndHonor

Senior Member

09-20-2011

I ban Lee Sin 100% of the time I am captain.

Lee Sin and Singed, tbh.


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Razeluxe

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReLaTiviT View Post
Seeing the community have back and forth talks about the strength of Lee Sin, I have decided to give and explain my personal thoughts.

Now, I'm not some Gold/Platinum Tournament player, and I will not pose as such.

Main Point 1:
Lee Sin is extremely reliant on his Q (skillshot) for both gap closing AND damage

Having 1 skill completely hit or miss a kill is very important in my reasoning of why Lee Sin, is not overpowered. There are few other champions so reliant on 1 ability, the ones I can think of are:
Blitzcrank's Grab
Brand's Sear
Ezreal's aiming

Even in those 3 skills, only Blitzcrank's Grab truly is as game-making as Lee Sin's Q.

Basically, the mechanical skill required to consistently land your Q's is vital to success, skill should be rewarded.


Main Point 2:
Lee Sin must balance burst with his passive to be successful.

This sort of tradeoff requires a high amount of tactical skill;
Should I Q, hit twice or Q again immediately?
I've just E'd, should I hit them, or should I E again for slow?
I'm in a close 1v1, I just W'd, should I W again to get the bonus regen or should I take advantage of the AS?

These types of choices in ability use takes tactical skill.

Main Point 3:
Lee Sin must use his ult strategically, as it is useful for a wide variety of situations.

Dragon's Rage can be used to:
Execute low-HP enemies
Push back dangerous enemies
Save Allies
Push a important target toward your team

In addition to the many uses of his ult, there are also intracacies that give huge reward when properly used:
The line nuke it causes, requires AIM. Was used in tournament by AD carry Lee Sin
The Knock-up line it causes, requires AIM and balance between hitting multiple targets and hitting the optimal knockback.
How far the ult is; knocking back over walls

Lee's Ult has a HUGE amount of decision making and thought involved.

Conclusion:
While Lee Sin is strong, the huge amount of Mechanical, Tactical, and Strategic skill required to use him is enormous.
Just the skill needed to properly use his Ult rivals many champion kits.

I believe that this huge prerequisite demands reward, we've all seen the FOTM Lee Sins who do miserably.

Lee Sin is strong, but NOT overpowered due to the skill required to use him.
Nope not buying it sorry. His kit just has too much in it.

- Gap Closer
- Escape Mechanism
- Lifesteal
- Spell Vamp
- Armor
- Attack Speed Steroid
- Attack Speed Debuff
- AoE Soft CC
- Hard CC (potential to be) AoE CC
- Shield
- Ally Shield
- AoE reveal
- etc, etc

Andd most importantly, all being basically resourceless. He has the CD's of a mana champ without the mana. Honestly whens the last time youve seen Lee Sin run out of energy? That passive restore might be a taddd OP.

And having two abilities hit for 940 + 4.0 + 10% in under a second isnt balanced.


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Kenage

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Quote:
He doesn't have High Burst and High Survivability in the Mid-game, He has to choose between Safeguard or Tempest, which is his Survivability and Burst.

Also, Jumping in to E then Ult then run away is plain dumb unless you're actually ensuring a kill, and we're also talking level 16+ Numbers, Where 1k is only about half of someone's health, assuming they arent glass cannon.
To debate your point I'll need to argue what is "High Burst and High Survivability" and I'm not going to do that, because is going to take us no where.

However since you didn't mention anything about it I guess we agree with the point that his kit gives him great mobility and since every single ability let him escape ganks and chases can we agree that he has high survivability?

Regarding "Jumping in to E then Ult then run away is plain dumb", sorry but who said anything about running away? isn't E's slow enough to overrun the enemy and kick him back to your team? I don't want to get inside the possible strategies that you can pull out with him, but the fact is that he doesn't have only a decent damage burst (1k which in your own words it's about half health of people past lvl 16) he also bring utility with the burst.

Again, is it really OK for a champion to do all this?


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Vuther

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza Soldier View Post
being hard to use is not an excuse to be super strong

see annie compared to ezreal
Harder champions should be stronger, but not so much that they are the only ones worth learning, and their pitfalls should always remain to keep the reliablility of the easier champions still worthwhile (like skillshots always having the potential to miss. You can aim well, but it is likely up to your opponent's microing skill whether it hits).