Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


Why Lee Sin is NOT overpowered

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Iced Nova

Recruiter

09-20-2011

Quote:
Kailkenage:
Lee Sin is definitely on the strong side right now, just try to mention another champion in the game that can escape a gank with his whole kit? There is no one except Lee sin, that's one of the problems with him, his kit is very strong 2 dashes, CC and hard CC.

And his damage is a bit on the top side as well, his kit does: 1,140 flat damage plus 4.0 Bonus attack damage, I think that's a bit high for the amount of utility and mobility he has.

On the other hand if Riot is thinking to cut his legs with a nerf like they did with Morde... maybe it's just better to sit back and think carefully what are they going to do with the blind monk.

Lee Sin is very rewarding to play, I hope they don't take that from him.


1.Only one Dash can be used to reliably get the to target, even then you have to dash to your own creeps, giving them ample time to move away when they see you.
2.The other dash requires you to actually aim and land it, making sure you get to the target.
3.If Tempest is maxed first, Then he doesn't have the tankyness from Safeguard / Iron Will
4. His Hard CC is a short Knock-back and if perfectly aimed, can knock-up multiple enemies (so can Janna)

Also, "1,140 flat damage plus 4.0 Bonus attack damage" is not a way to tell how much damage he actually does.

How often is he actually landing his Q, E, and R?

Karthus with his whole kit does 880 Damage and a 1.05 bonus AP. Less than Lee right?

Wrong, It comes down to Cooldowns and the fact that a Pure damage Lee dies instantly in a team fight, and a Tanky Lee won't be anywhere close to having Carry-Esque Damage.

His strength is Early and Mid, Late game he Tapers off more then any Bruiser in the game. He's more of an AD caster that becomes Tanky and Supporty(safeguard, Defensive kicks) late game if you ask me.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kaeoz

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Quote:
ReLaTiviT:
Then by all means explain why to persuade me.

I feel it seems counter-logical for skill not to equate to strength.


The problem arises when you approach a top end of play.

Say the potential strength of Champion A is 20 but you only need to put in a skill of 5 to reach that max potential. Now let the potential maximum strength of champion B (who has a similar role to champion A) be 30, but you need a skill of 9 to reach that potential...

Here in lies the problem, at certain thresholds... Champion A will never be viable since he's power-capped due to his relative ease to play... and at higher elos... everyone must play champion B because they all have skill levels of 9+...

That's not balance at the higher elos, which is the chief problem with lee sin, ezreal, orianna and the like.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Iced Nova

Recruiter

09-20-2011

Quote:
Celestya:
They HAVE buffed his late game in the past. You know, that whole 2:1 Q ratio, 1:1 E, and 2:1 R. Why are people so ridiculously blind when it comes to seeing burst damage and ratios?


They Buffed his damage, not because his late game was bad, He just didn't have damage at all before he got buffed.

His late-game damage isn't the best, specially if he builds like a bruiser, and he doesnt have the kit for a Melee Carry, so building him like a carry won't work if you aren't hilariously fed.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

rodoabad

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Lee Sin makes you feel like you were playing against Eve when she had stun. You tend to play too passive even at lvl 1. That will result in super boring gameplay which Riot doesn't want.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Iced Nova

Recruiter

09-20-2011

Quote:
rodoabad:
Lee Sin makes you feel like you were playing against Eve when she had stun. You tend to play too passive even at lvl 1. That will result in super boring gameplay which Riot doesn't want.


0/10 man, i know you can do better


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Failni

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Lee sin is balanced / l2p noob comunity


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Josh de Tonreau

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Quote:
die4769:
That's if Lee lands his Q, you're being biased here, you're assuming in the Nunu gank, the enemy team is smart enough to avoid him, and in the Lee gank, you're assuming they don't know how to avoid skillshots. If you aren't overextending, it's actually really easy to avoid a Lee gank. Don't panic, keep your head and use minions to avoid Q, there you go, if you aren't horribly overextended, it'll be easy to walk right past him back to your tower, or if he came from the river, just walk back to your tower.


Oh, it appears that you seem to think we're talking about Ezreal


eat a pellet.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Celestya

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Quote:
Iced Nova:
They Buffed his damage, not because his late game was bad, He just didn't have damage at all before he got buffed.

His late-game damage isn't the best, specially if he builds like a bruiser, and he doesnt have the kit for a Melee Carry, so building him like a carry won't work if you aren't hilariously fed.


How the hell do you play him? Lol, I've honestly NEVER had issues late game building either DPS or Atmog's. Check. His. Ratios.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

bourbonowns

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Quote:
Pizza Soldier:
being hard to use is not an excuse to be super strong

see annie compared to ezreal


This.

Ezreal requires at least twice the skill to play than Caitlyn or Tristana, yet he deals less damage than them even when played optimally.

If being hard to play means you get to deal more damage, I expect huge Ezreal buffs in the future.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bland

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Quote:
Kaeoz:
The problem arises when you approach a top end of play.

Say the potential strength of Champion A is 20 but you only need to put in a skill of 5 to reach that max potential. Now let the potential maximum strength of champion B (who has a similar role to champion A) be 30, but you need a skill of 9 to reach that potential...

Here in lies the problem, at certain thresholds... Champion A will never be viable since he's power-capped due to his relative ease to play... and at higher elos... everyone must play champion B because they all have skill levels of 9+...

That's not balance at the higher elos, which is the chief problem with lee sin, ezreal, orianna and the like.


Your explanation is excellent, but also provides arguments for not calling Lee Sin OP, but actually other champions UP...

Let's use your scenario:
If you now reduce Champion B to have same potential power as Champion A, it will break the lower Elos, since he'll obviously be extremely less powerful than Champion A. Thus you would have to make him easier, capping him at a skill of 5 as well.

End-Result: you have 2 Champions at a potential power level of 20 at a skill of 5...
And a ton of higher Elo players who have a skill of 9+ and aren't playing either of the champions (only talking about the champion handling here, not other skills you need in higher Elo) a single bit different from how lower Elos use them. Even worse, someone who has the same tactical properties and reflexes as a high Elo player, but is really bad at champion handling, could even beat someone in high Elo, because there's simply no champion that allows the high Elo player to show what he can do.

I'd much rather have more champions with a high skill-cap instead of nerfing those who have one.

Edit: I just want to add, I am not really high-Elo... but handling a certain champion, and learning to play him well and use all of the potential he has, is something I'm relatively good at... and because of this Lee Sin is one of the few heroes I really love playing, simply because playing him is a certain challenge. Because of this I'm fairly certain I would even keep on playing him, if they nerfed him.