An Objective Analysis of Why JAX is OP

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Carados

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saucison View Post
I think we've all mostly agreed that Jax's power level comes mostly from his dodge
You mean the same exact dodge which was unchanged when they changed him from weakest melee carry to unstoppable god a few patches back?


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Vize

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSalty View Post
I think Jax is fine (and imho, I thought he fine for the past two patches where he was nerfed on his passive and ap ratios). Granted, he's OP on TT, but so are a lot of champions and there are so many unviable champs in comparison. Twisted Treeline is a fundamentally unbalanced map and always will be as long as it's 3v3.
There is a difference between being 'OP' and being 'Strong'. Warwick and Mundo are both strong on TT, but not OP. A champion should really never be 'OP' when used in any map. Generally it means that something is fundamentally overpowering about that Champion that a particular map is merely highlighting. This is the case with Jax. He is simply too overpowering in his current incarnation as a MDPS champ. His ability to tank incoming melee damage when coupled with his damage output is overpowered. Summoner's Rift merely hides this imbalance because it increases the ability of one team to focus Jax down and/or provides more skills/abilities to deal with his imbalances. But this is true for any character, not just Jax.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSalty View Post
Anyway, take a look at it from the Jax player's view point. Yes, he has many good qualities that may be viewed as OP; however, it's the price for playing a melee dps champion. Leap Strike is a dangerous chasing ability, but it also closes the gap between him and the enemy.
I agree that Leap Strike is a way for Jax to close the distance between him and his enemy. It's just that when Leap Strike is combined with his ultimate, it closes the distance AND explodes whoever he lands on. It should be more of a range closer and less of a huge damage nuke + range closer. Furthermore, when it's on a 5-8 second cooldown it can be spammed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSalty View Post
If Jax initiates a team fight, he'll most likely go down like instantly against a competent team. The purpose behind his passive is to help him take some of the burst and residual damage in a team fight and deal damage.
The problem is that Jax can initiate most fights. He has relativly good HP and extremely high dodge. He can shrug off anything that reiles on melee attacks and since magic users are inherently farther back from an engagement, he will have an easier time getting away in most circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSalty View Post
Despite my standpoint on Jax being balanced, I think a few things need to be changed. First of all, SotD should be buffed in some way. 5 seconds on one person is not enough, maybe if the effect was spread to nearby allies or lasted longer it'd be better. .
I disagree that the solution to Jax is to boost SoTD. I really don't think that any one champ should be hard countered by a single item. Making SoTD totally neuter Jax would swing things in the opposite direction and just make him totally suck. I want balance, not champ destruction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSalty View Post
Second, I think Jax should not temporarily heal himself just by running in and out from someone with Aegis and other things like that. His passive should only work with his items including fortitude pot (I think healing from Rageblade is fair)..
I really don't think Jax's passive getting a boost from allied items is really all that significant so that doesn't bother me so much. But I do agree that it should ideally only be from his own items.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSalty View Post
Finally, every other melee DPS champion should be raised to Jax's level. Melee DPS should be stronger than ranged DPS carries because ranged DPS have much more control
I think most/all MDPS champs have a way of closing the distance between them and their ranged counter parts. Furthermore, they almost always have more HP and ways of escaping. I think things are fine the way they are.


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Gummibear

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Senior Member

05-28-2010

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Originally Posted by Chimeray View Post
There are hardly any champions whose skills synergy perfectly, or where AD/AP scaling isn't mixed. Jax has both in his favor... I don't know why they made him near 'perfect'.
I'd say make one skill scale with AD, another with AP.
It's not fun, I know... But there are lots of champions that suffer these choices and I don't see why Jax shouldn't.
I think you're looking at that the wrong way. Maybe other champions shouldn't have to suffer those choices, which could help them be more fun to play as.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vize
The problem is that your debuff isn't really all that significant. Dodge currently has dimishing returns as you stack it. When I say that Jax has ~40% dodge when fully kitted out, this is around the effective dodge that Jax has after his items have been adjusted for dimishing returns. If you didn't have dimishing returns, Jax could easily have ~56% dodge (+6% runes, +12% ninja tabi, +18% Counterstrik, +20% Phantom Dancer). So when you lower Jax's dodge a mere 4%, you have to keep in mind that the diminishing returns are working in the opposite direction. You are really only reducing Jax's dodge percent like 2-3%. TBFH that isn't anything. Even 4% is far too small of a reduction on his dodge to make a difference. You would have to completly negate his Counterstrike bonus to dodge for this debuff to do anything.
Like I said, the numbers aren't perfect. If that's the case, then increase the amount of dodge lost (and perhaps have it exceed the bonus granted by counterstrike, if necessary).

My point is that what Jax can do gives him an interesting playstyle that people seem to enjoy, but people are put off by the fact that he can spam these things without any regard. Don't destroy an interesting playstyle to make him balanced; just make it so he has to be more careful, pay attention, and think about his abilities rather than follow some "automatic rotation" or "spam."


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Vize

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saucison View Post
I think we've all mostly agreed that Jax's power level comes mostly from his dodge. nso don't attack him, in a 5v5 take out the one's you can and if it's going well then attack Jax. I havn'
e had a problem with jax in a long long time, because after a while people just run from him, he might leap strike you a couple times but no stuns gives you plenty of time to get back to a tower which he can't dodge.

it's not that hard, just stop trying to kill him with auto attack classes
So your solution is to run away from him and not actually attack him in melee - ever. And that seems balanced to you?

The other problem to your argument is this: how do you ignore a guy that can dish out respectable DPS? Most champs that can tank damage can't dish it out so this works great. Mundo, Alistar, Malphite, etc. Jax can tank melee damage AND dish it out. That's imba.


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MindlessLegend

Senior Member

05-28-2010

His dodge and speed is what makes him OP. Because he starts with base speed of 325 and high dodge u can get the increase speed 10% mastery on dodge giving him the highest base speed with not using any spells or abilities.


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Vize

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baumfrosh View Post
I think you're looking at that the wrong way. Maybe other champions shouldn't have to suffer those choices, which could help them be more fun to play as.



Like I said, the numbers aren't perfect. If that's the case, then increase the amount of dodge lost (and perhaps have it exceed the bonus granted by counterstrike, if necessary).

My point is that what Jax can do gives him an interesting playstyle that people seem to enjoy, but people are put off by the fact that he can spam these things without any regard. Don't destroy an interesting playstyle to make him balanced; just make it so he has to be more careful, pay attention, and think about his abilities rather than follow some "automatic rotation" or "spam."
Here's another major problem with your debuff; at what point does the debuff actually have any real impact on the battle? Keep in mind that Counterstrike is on a 5 second cooldown. How many Counterstrikes does Jax get to pull off before this debuff really kicks in? If we are 2-3 Counterstrikes into a battle, the battle is pretty much well and over and any further value a particular team might get from exploiting Jax's temporary debuff is negligible.

What's so wrong with implementing what I suggested? That is: take away the AOE affect of Jax's Counterstrikes and don't allow him to dodge more than one person. That will keep Jax's Champion dynamic that some people enjoy while preventing him from soloing 3 melee champs at the same time.


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Carados

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by MindlessLegend View Post
His dodge and speed is what makes him OP. Because he starts with base speed of 325 and high dodge u can get the increase speed 10% mastery on dodge giving him the highest base speed with not using any spells or abilities.
Again, you mean the same exact dodge which was unchanged when they changed him from weakest melee carry to unstoppable god a few patches back?


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KungPaoChicken

Senior Member

05-28-2010

lmao, jax isnt OP at all, sword of the divine or some CC and hes done. just learn how to play and dont be stupid.

some champs arent suppose to be susceptible to ALL champs possibly killing them. jax is one the good anti-melee champs.

any champs attacking him should be able to proc his counterstrike, if your in a team fight and a minion happens to proc his dodge and you can only stun the person that proc'd the dodge, then that effectively removes the usefulness that skill has in team fights. leapstrike isnt useful in teamfights and empower isnt exactly that great. your suggestion is to basically remove his effectiveness in team fights and make him a solo champ.

This isnt a solo game though and having solo champs would just be stupid. atleast warwick has a targetable stun and a team buff.

maybe saying his stun would be targetable wouldve been better, since stunning minions isnt exactly a cool story bro.

We could go with counterstrike being proc'd by any attack dodged, but then have it apply to his next melee attack, so that way who ever he hits next would be stunned. It removes the risk of stunning a minion and its removes it from being AoE.

I think thats a much better suggestion than the OPs, but i honestly dont have any problems with jax with the way he is now.


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SouthernSun

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Senior Member

05-28-2010

lol. I have never had any trouble against Jax, well only when he just got a major buff, around March I think. Anyway, I have played against a lot of Jax players the last month, some great some bad. But I never had any problems against them. He is so easy to shut down imo. If you even have 1 caster (ryze/annie) in your team, he's toast. Let them lane against Jax and see how he fails.

And how does Jax tank and do a lot of melee DPS?! If you want to get a lot of HP with Jax you stack Attack Damage. If you do that you will be very vurnable because you will have almost no Armor and no Magic Resistance. How are you going to tank with only Attack Damage [HP] items. Please tell me.

And running away from him when you are alone with Jax in a lane IS a solution. It's the same thing with Ryze. You should never be alone when you face those kind of champions. If you play a melee champion you SHOULD be scared of him. He is anti melee. That's what he is made for. He lives for 1 v 1 fights. Just like Veigar can own casters, he owns melee champs. If you go 1 v 1 it's suicide. And why should you?! League of Legends is a team game. If you play well with your team you can shut down Jax pretty easily.


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Vize

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernSun View Post
lol. I have never had any trouble against Jax, well only when he just got a major buff, around March I think. Anyway, I have played against a lot of Jax players the last month, some great some bad. But I never had any problems against them.

And btw Jax can TANK and dish out melee damage?! lol how? If you want to get a lot of HP with Jax you stack Attack Damage. If you do that you will be very vurnable because you will have almost no Armor and no Magic Resistance. How are you going to tank with only Attack Damage [HP] items. Please tell me.

And running away from him when you are alone with Jax in a lane IS a solution. It's the same thing with Ryze. If you play a melee champion you SHOULD be scared of him. He is anti melee. That's what he is made for. He lives for 1 v 1 fights. Just like Veigar can own casters, he owns melee champs. If you go 1 v 1 it's suicide. And why should you?! League of Legends is a team game.
Ya my bad, really sucks that Jax GAINS HP from INCREASING HIS DAMAGE on a 3HP:1AD ratio with an already insane dodge%. Jax's armor is his dodge and Phantom Dancer fits that bill nicely while simultaneously increasing his damage output.

Ryze is vulnerable after his initial alpha, Veigar is really only scary late late game. Jax basically wrecks people level 6+ and can sustain his damage/tanking ability well beyond the initial engagement. There is a big difference.


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