An Objective Analysis of Why JAX is OP

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Vize

Senior Member

05-28-2010

I really don't like using the term 'OP' for any champ. I am of the mentality that you have to find ways to beat the enemy champ and if you are dying to them then it is your fault for not finding a strategy that works.

But this post is a point by point why I think Jax is over the top when you account for how his abilities synergize with one another.

Jax has an extremely high dodge chance thanks to his Counterstrike's passive. Dodge makes your Effective Hit Points (EHP) much higher than a comprable amount of straight hit points. The fact that Jax with Phantom Dancer is pushing ~40% Dodge makes him an exceptionally brutal melee tank. Especially when you consider that Jax has a higher hit point/level than Malphite (a pure bred tank). Not to mention that Jax has a nice passive that gives him even more HP for taking items that increase his damage.

On top of this, Jax's damage and damage mitigation increases as his chance to dodge increases. At 25%+ dodge chance (easily attainable), Counterstrike essentially becomes spammable. With a champion that is attacking Jax at least 1 time per second, Counterstrike on a 5 second cooldown, and Counterstrike usable 7 seconds after a dodge, Jax should on average be able to spam his Counterstrike skill and stun any surrounding enemies while dealing a decent amount of additional damage constantly. This stun further reduces Jax's incoming damage while increasing his damage output. Add in the fact that in the laning phase, minions are going to be attacking Jax which further feeds his ability to spam this skill. Dodge% + Counterstrike also allows Jax to jungle quite well.

Next ability: Leap Strike
Magic Damage: 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 (+0.8 per ability power) ADDITIONAL magic damage
Cooldown: 17 / 14 / 11 / 8 / 5 seconds

The problem with Leap Strike is it gives Jax a free attack on a target plus additional magic damage. With Relentless Assault active, Jax can follow the free attack from Leap Strike with a normal auto attack and have his Relentless Assault proc adding more magic damage. So Jax is dropping a nuke level attack on top of closing the distance on his target. Even without his ultimate up, Jax can Leap Strike + Counterstrike to have a ranged stun + a to target teleport. This skill is even more brutal at high level when the cooldown drops to 8 and 5 seconds. There really is no escape from a Jax with Leap Strike and any summoner spell that affects your movement or his movement. He can pretty much continually Leap Strike you until you are dead. Which consequentially he doesn't need a lot of time to do given his usually extremely high attack speed and damage output.

It is well known that Jax is OP in Twisted Treeline largely for the reasons I have outlined above. Many people think Jax is simply "strong" in Summoners Rift. However, I think that the argument as to why Jax is not OP in SR is kind of silly. The main reason Jax is not OP in SR (to them) is that he can be focussed easier from magic users which is his biggest "weakness" since the magic can pierce his dodge defense. So let me get this straight, because Jax is so insanely OP against other melee, the only way to take him out is with 2-3 magic users nuking him into the ground? What champion WOULDN'T die to that? I really don't see a strategy that would kill ANY champion a viable strategy. Item builds, tactics for avoiding x,y,z, etc. are all valid ways to counter something; not focussing. Focusing is not a solution to an imbalanced champ, in fact I think it's evidence that the champ is imbalanced when the only strategy to take him down is with multiple other champions with a specific characteristic (mage) taking them down.

Here's the real underlying issue. Jax's dodge + hit point's/level make him an extremely strong tank even against multiple melee opponents. But Jax can ALSO do extremely high melee damage in addition to being a great melee tank. He is able to do two roles excpetionally well. Yi on the other hand does great damage, but can't take a lot of damage. Alistar is a great tank but can't do **** for damage. Soraka is great support, but can't take any damage or do much damage. See a pattern? Jax breaks this pattern and does multiple roles excpetionally well - he's a great melee tank and excellent DPS. This is a problem and it is what is making him OP.

Here are some suggestions to toning down this dual role.

1) Leap Strike should have it's cooldown a straight 11 seconds given it's potential damage and benefits, the Leap Strike attack should not count towards Relentless Assault, and the Magic bonus damage should be removed. I think being able to jump to a target and get in a regular attack every 11 seconds that doesn't proc the ultimate's ability is perfectly fine.

2) Jax's dodge from Counterstrike should only apply to the first Champion that attacks him and reset only after that champion has stopped attacking Jax for 5 seconds. This would still give him considerable 1v1 potential as a duelist-type champion, but not give him god mode when multiple melee champions are trying to take him down.

3) Jax's stun and damage from Counterstrike should only apply to the target that he is currently dodging and not be AOE.

I really don't see my suggestions breaking this champion. It still allows Jax to retain his core abilities and dodge percentage, but lowers his ability to soak enormous damage from multiple champions all while doing massive damage.

EDIT:

In the spirit of being objective:

Tried using SoTD last match against a Jax. Worked well and I was able to bring him down very quickly.

Will test more and see what happens but I am encouraged by the results.

If this works out I owe an apology to those who I questioned earlier about it's effectiveness.


However, I still feel Leap Strike should have it's cooldown scaled back.


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Daikaze

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Decent feedback... quite shocking really.

I'm not sure I entirely agree... But he does stand out amongst the MDPS champions, primarily due to his passive.

My only real complaint about Jax is the free healing he receives from temporary sources (Janna, Guinsoo, etc) affecting his passive.


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Anxy

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Any champion who is based on being able to dodge without receiving a penalty for having dodge (aka a trade off, a example to those who don't understand what i mean here would be : Said champion dodges hit, said champion receives a 1 sec -50% attack speed debuff for dodging.) is completly and uterly broken.

why would dodge make a champion OP? because at high dodge with a bit of luck you can dodge all attacks. say in a fight between jax and warwick. jax has 40% dodge. and he dodges the first 4 attacks out of 6 then another 3. that allows jax to hit with the same attack speed 9 times while warwick hits 2 times.

the above examples are extreme. but grab exhaust on jax and that means in essence you can make him near impossible to kill for some champions.


Such is the reason jax is OP.




Now if this isn't enough to make realisation of jax's huge OP'ness (<-- see what i did there lawl) after dodging he can therefore stun his opponent. now to make it worse, its aoe. add on you can't run away from it because he can leap.




This all means, in the right hands a jax can come out of bush, kill enemy and run away.




now add his second summoner ability to be teleport or ghost...



Its a nightmare.


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Gummibear

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Senior Member

05-28-2010

Well, I think we all agree that melee DPS champs need survivability and viable approach tactics in order to be successful at their job, so I'd be against giving Jax a HUGE dent in these categories. I'm also not a fan of nerfing the synergy between his abilities because that makes the character much less interactive and entertaining to play.

I think a better solution to the dodge problem would be to give counterstrike diminishing returns. In other words, the more he dodges, the lower his dodge chance becomes for a period of time. An example of a "more fair" version of counterstrike:

Counterstrike - Jax's prowess allows him to dodge melee attacks frequently. After avoiding an attack, Jax quickly stuns surrounding enemies.

Passive: Increases Jax's dodge chance 12/14/16/18/20%. After dodging an attack, Jax gains a stack of Weariness debuff. Weariness decreases Jax's chance to dodge 4%, lasts 7 seconds, and stacks up to 3/3/4/4/5 times.

Active: Jax stuns surrounding enemies for 1 second and deals 80/100/120/140/160 (+0.6) magic damage to them.

Usable within 7 seconds of dodging an attack.

Cooldown: 5 seconds
Cost: 60/60/60/60/60 Mana
Range: 400

This still allows him to play in much the same manner, but reduces the "spammability" of Counterstrike and decreases his ablility to just hang around forever against melees without really getting hit. The debuff lasts the same amount of time as he can stun, and it stacks only up to an amount equal to or less than the dodge chance granted by that rank of the passive to prevent it from stealing dodge from items.

EDIT: The numbers might not be perfect either, they were just off the top of my head. Obviously, they can be tweaked, but the idea still stands.


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Maintence on EU

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Either bring him down to everyother melee "powerlevel" or bring everyone but JAX up to his powerlevel!

Is melees supposed to be as strong as jax? really?


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SyeBlaze

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Senior Member

05-28-2010

My opinion is to leave Jax as is... I rarely have issue with him.

I also play casters primarily... I wonder if that's the reason.


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Vize

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by SyeBlaze View Post
My opinion is to leave Jax as is... I rarely have issue with him.

I also play casters primarily... I wonder if that's the reason.
You think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baumfrosh
I think a better solution to the dodge problem would be to give counterstrike diminishing returns. In other words, the more he dodges, the lower his dodge chance becomes for a period of time. An example of a "more fair" version of counterstrike:

Counterstrike - Jax's prowess allows him to dodge melee attacks frequently. After avoiding an attack, Jax quickly stuns surrounding enemies.

Passive: Increases Jax's dodge chance 12/14/16/18/20%. After dodging an attack, Jax gains a stack of Weariness debuff. Weariness decreases Jax's chance to dodge 4%, lasts 7 seconds, and stacks up to 3/3/4/4/5 times.
The problem is that your debuff isn't really all that significant. Dodge currently has dimishing returns as you stack it. When I say that Jax has ~40% dodge when fully kitted out, this is around the effective dodge that Jax has after his items have been adjusted for dimishing returns. If you didn't have dimishing returns, Jax could easily have ~56% dodge (+6% runes, +12% ninja tabi, +18% Counterstrik, +20% Phantom Dancer). So when you lower Jax's dodge a mere 4%, you have to keep in mind that the diminishing returns are working in the opposite direction. You are really only reducing Jax's dodge percent like 2-3%. TBFH that isn't anything. Even 4% is far too small of a reduction on his dodge to make a difference. You would have to completly negate his Counterstrike bonus to dodge for this debuff to do anything.


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SoSalty

Senior Member

05-28-2010

I think Jax is fine (and imho, I thought he fine for the past two patches where he was nerfed on his passive and ap ratios). Granted, he's OP on TT, but so are a lot of champions and there are so many unviable champs in comparison. Twisted Treeline is a fundamentally unbalanced map and always will be as long as it's 3v3. Anyway, take a look at it from the Jax player's view point. Yes, he has many good qualities that may be viewed as OP; however, it's the price for playing a melee dps champion. Leap Strike is a dangerous chasing ability, but it also closes the gap between him and the enemy. If Jax initiates a team fight, he'll most likely go down like instantly against a competent team. The purpose behind his passive is to help him take some of the burst and residual damage in a team fight and deal damage.

Despite my standpoint on Jax being balanced, I think a few things need to be changed. First of all, SotD should be buffed in some way. 5 seconds on one person is not enough, maybe if the effect was spread to nearby allies or lasted longer it'd be better. Second, I think Jax should not temporarily heal himself just by running in and out from someone with Aegis and other things like that. His passive should only work with his items including fortitude pot (I think healing from Rageblade is fair). Finally, every other melee DPS champion should be raised to Jax's level. Melee DPS should be stronger than ranged DPS carries because ranged DPS have much more control.


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Chimeray

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baumfrosh View Post
I'm also not a fan of nerfing the synergy between his abilities because that makes the character much less interactive and entertaining to play.
There are hardly any champions whose skills synergy perfectly, or where AD/AP scaling isn't mixed. Jax has both in his favor... I don't know why they made him near 'perfect'.
I'd say make one skill scale with AD, another with AP.
It's not fun, I know... But there are lots of champions that suffer these choices and I don't see why Jax shouldn't.


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Saucison

Member

05-28-2010

I think we've all mostly agreed that Jax's power level comes mostly from his dodge. nso don't attack him, in a 5v5 take out the one's you can and if it's going well then attack Jax. I havn'
e had a problem with jax in a long long time, because after a while people just run from him, he might leap strike you a couple times but no stuns gives you plenty of time to get back to a tower which he can't dodge.

it's not that hard, just stop trying to kill him with auto attack classes


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