Hero difficulty imbalance

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IamDuddits

Senior Member

05-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrthodoxChaote View Post
Simply put, some heroes are WAY too easy to harass with early game. Ashe, Kat and Zilean come to mind. Ashe's Volley can only realistically be described as a no-skill shot, and Kat's dagger bounces so many times and has a long enough bounce distance that it can't NOT hit me 75% of the time.

I do this thing that some of you may be familiar with. I lane mid with Karthus. I lane mid with other heroes but I think Karthus is a fantastic example of what I'm talking about here.

Easily half the games I lane mid with Karthus I'm laned against either Ashe or Kat. Realistically I'd guess closer to 75%. I haveto work my ass off to do any damage to them at all, because if they're even slightly competent (as in don't haveto wear a helmet to take the bus) they know to dodge Lay Waste. That means every single time I want to hit them with it, I haveto fake them out/trick them in some fashion. And in return, they can spam Volley/Dagger throw without ANY effort whatsoever. Just click, bam. I'm harassed.

I'm not saying that they're "overpowered" perse. I'm merely saying that some heroes basically play themselves, and that the people who play them don't haveto have any real skill, or work at it at all to out-harass other heroes mid. If they can find the Q button, they can out-harass whoever's in lane with them. And most people can find the Q button.

This is fine for people learning the game, but, put them in the hands of someone who's experienced with League and they're going to ruin everyone's **** because they will basically always win the harassing/farming war early, and thus will be extremely strong lategame, without having had to work for it at all early. Gives decent players a HUGE advantage they didn't have to work for.

I think there's a serious need to rework a few skills that simply make things WAY too easy on the person using them. I personally think Kat and Ashe are the worst for this, but, there are others as well.
Are you seriously implying that an 8 second CD ability with no mana cost that hits for about 300 damage to six different targets by midgame to be OP? How absurd.

On a serious note, Kat's bouncing blade has a cooldown and Volley has a pretty decent cooldown at early levels.

Tactic: Farm until they use these abilities (which they will do because they also want to farm). When they do this then you can move in for some harassment because you have Lay Waste and it's 1/2 second cooldown so you can spam them with it.


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Darkwolfer2002

Senior Member

05-27-2010

I agree somewhat with the statement. I had a topic that put WW vs Ashe. Only way WW can ever get to Ashe is ambush but if she is competent and geared its just a fail...

I have Ulted Ashe from bushes... took her down to like 1/8th health or so... then she ult me runs back.. .. or flashes... anyways then she basically slows me continually until I am dead and she survive with like less then 100 hp.. how is that fair that as WW you can't get close to Ashe.

I guess that why it a team game because you have to cut off Ashe escape... of course if her team is any good...

So umm to fix it can't they just shorten Ashe range by a little???


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Bainemo

Senior Member

05-27-2010

Well, I posted a long reply and the awesome forum decided it was time to ignore it, so I'll just summarize it:

Ashe is good early game because she's not good late game


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OrthodoxChaote

Senior Member

05-27-2010

Karthus = example. Jesus christ. I'm quite a good Karthus and usually do fine against Ashe mid. That's not the point I'm making here. The point I'm making is that Ashe does not require effort or skill to do what I'm working my ass off with tricky lay wastes and other **** to do.

Ok. Let me put it another way. Two people are going to have a drag race. Both cars are capable of going at 100 MPH. In order to go 100MPH in Car A you haveto push down on the accelerator as hard as you can. In Car B you have to push down on two different accelerators and push a button on the dashboard with one of your hands.

I'm saying that in order to do as well with Ashe (as the main example of this) as you'd do with another hero, it requires significantly less effort and skill. I'm not saying she can't be laned against. I'm saying that for her, lane success is effortless, which goes on to give her a serious advantage late game, which the person playing her never really had to earn, like they would have with a different hero.


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Airza

Senior Member

05-27-2010

God dammit annie has such a huge advantage in summoning bears. other champions have to work for bear summoning but annie is just so easy for SCRUBS to just POINT AND CLICK and summon a BEAR. This may be fun for people like BEARS but what about us VARY EXPERIENCE SUMMONAR who WORK REALLY HARD TO SUMMON BEARS.


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OrthodoxChaote

Senior Member

05-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamDuddits View Post
Are you seriously implying that an 8 second CD ability with no mana cost that hits for about 300 damage to six different targets by midgame to be OP? How absurd.

On a serious note, Kat's bouncing blade has a cooldown and Volley has a pretty decent cooldown at early levels.

Tactic: Farm until they use these abilities (which they will do because they also want to farm). When they do this then you can move in for some harassment because you have Lay Waste and it's 1/2 second cooldown so you can spam them with it.
Yeah. I'm not saying that Ashe can't be beat. I'm just saying that like, you haveto do everything right all the time just to keep up with "spam volley".


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IamDuddits

Senior Member

05-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrthodoxChaote View Post
Karthus = example. Jesus christ. I'm quite a good Karthus and usually do fine against Ashe mid. That's not the point I'm making here. The point I'm making is that Ashe does not require effort or skill to do what I'm working my ass off with tricky lay wastes and other **** to do.

Ok. Let me put it another way. Two people are going to have a drag race. Both cars are capable of going at 100 MPH. In order to go 100MPH in Car A you haveto push down on the accelerator as hard as you can. In Car B you have to push down on two different accelerators and push a button on the dashboard with one of your hands.

I'm saying that in order to do as well with Ashe (as the main example of this) as you'd do with another hero, it requires significantly less effort and skill. I'm not saying she can't be laned against. I'm saying that for her, lane success is effortless, which goes on to give her a serious advantage late game, which the person playing her never really had to earn, like they would have with a different hero.
Ok and you are comparing one ability.

Let's compare their Ultimates. Let's say you and Karthus are both Level 6 mid and their is a lane getting pushed top. Both teams' champs are very low HP and it's a close match up. If Ashe wants to help her team out she has to aim a skill shot that needs to be well timed if it is going to hit and even then only stuns 1 of the 2 champions while Karthus just hits R and Kamehamehas everyone on the opposing team. Based on your logic Karthus has to put zero effort into helping his teams compared to Ashe who has to work very hard to aim a skill shot half way across the map.

You, sir, have failed.


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GIANTISOPOD

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Senior Member

05-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrthodoxChaote View Post
I'm not saying they should all be identical. I'm saying that Ashe is so easy to harass with that it gives whoever picks her a HUGE advantage without them having to work for it? Ashe is a strong physical damage hero with the cone damage/slow and her ult which does AOE damage. Arguing that she's "not good in team fights" is not so correct. Especially when she was able to farm unimpeded entirely because she could effortlessly out harass whoever she laned against.

Also uhhh. "They wanted to make it challenging and fun to different play styles," There is nothing challenging about Ashe, which is kinda my point.

Also I'm not saying Karthus isn't good. I was using him as an example of a hero who requires skill to harass with early, compared to Ashe.
when I see ashe in lane early, I see a free bag of gold idk what you're talking about. she has one of the puniest base hps with no stuns until her ult.


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OrthodoxChaote

Senior Member

05-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamDuddits View Post
Ok and you are comparing one ability.

Let's compare their Ultimates. Let's say you and Karthus are both Level 6 mid and their is a lane getting pushed top. Both teams' champs are very low HP and it's a close match up. If Ashe wants to help her team out she has to aim a skill shot that needs to be well timed if it is going to hit and even then only stuns 1 of the 2 champions while Karthus just hits R and Kamehamehas everyone on the opposing team.

You, sir, have failed.
This is entirely 100% true. Karthus's ult only requires that you pay attention to the map and make sure not to get interrupted. Personally I think the AP scaling on it needs to be pulled back a bit. I'm not saying Karthus is bad. I'm just saying that Ashe harasses effortlessly and thus gets a very strong gold/level advantage without working for it.

I'm just saying I'm tired of working my ass off to land lay wastes, or Stacked Deck procs, or Mystic shots, only to have my **** countered by "Pressing q and shooting the whole lane" over and over again.


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Maledicte

Senior Member

05-27-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lykaeus View Post
The idea of riot was not to make one single kind of hero, that is good early game and late game and in 5v5 and in 1v1.

Their intention in this game was to diversify, Yi is horrid early game but if played right can destroy anything late game, Ashe is great 1v1 but not nearly as strong in 5v5 brawls, Karthus was not intended to be great 1v1 given his ult of kill anything on the map and have mass AoE and keep it going while dead, blow up any 5v5 situation.

They wanted to make it challenging and fun to different play styles, and if you like playing karthus then get lvl 6 faster than your enemy, or just farm the creeps for gold so you can ult harder?
I definitely agree with what you are saying about how Riot was trying to create many different play-styles, and having various, unique champions. However, I do have to agree somewhat with the OP. There are easy-to-play champions, which is fine, and in fact necessary for newbies. It then becomes something completely different, however, when an actual skilled player picks one of these champions. It is like a sniper with his rifle vs a sniper with a rocket-launcher. Same skill, but better equipment.