Y am I bad with Cait and Vayne, good with Ashe?

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Farmville

Senior Member

09-06-2011

They're all squishy ranged AD champs, but I do consistently well with Ashe and constantly bad with Cait and Vayne. Why is that? Is Ashe just a lot easier to play, or does she just so happen to fit my play style better? I have about the same amount of time spent playing with them all...


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T3cK

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Member

09-06-2011

Ashe is a very easy champion to learn. You basically build up AS and AD at equal rates giving you a steady damage output throughout the entire game. Vayne on the other hand needs a ton of AS right off the bat. A truly good Vayne won't buy any damage until level 10-14 because the proc from silver bolts as well as the stun/knockback on condemn is enough to take people down. I don't have much experience with Cait, but she and Vayne are more hard-carries. Ashe can get a perfectly easy kill at level 1 with volley, ignite and exhaust. Having only one move, Vayne and Caitlin might need teammates with more CC to secure a kill.

Another possibility is that people who have played Ashe for a while tend to be somewhat aggressive once they know her limitations. With only about 360 health to start with, Vayne is a priority target at level 1 as is Caitlin and thus they can't be overaggressive.

Hope this helps!

T3cK


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doo0ooooooom

Senior Member

09-06-2011

ashe probably has the most defensive playstyle of anyone in the game. She's also the only one who ganks you from the front with her ult initiation, everyone else has to go around from behind or at least wait for their opponents to get stupidly close to them. Ashe is basically turret hugger/farmer extraordinaire while cait/vayne should be played more agressively esp early game, as they actually have escape abilities, which is a much different playstyle than ashe.

...

and t3cK, no offense, but your advice is pretty bad... most ashe builds get infinity edge as first major item, not "AS and AD"... and skipping ad on vayne early game is questionable as both her Q and crossbow scale with ad, not that i'm saying attack speed would be a bad idea.

your level 1 hp statistics are also wrong, both cait and vayne have (slightly) more hp than ashe at level 1, and if you got "360" (actually 359) from the wiki, that's the base health at level 0 not the health at level 1.... actual hp at level 1 is 359 + 83 or 442 if you are vayne... or 438 if you're ashe.

edit:

and if you're good with ashe and not the others, its probably because of her initiation ult.... vayne/cait can't really start fights without putting themselves seriously open to focus fire.... ashe arrow is the best initiate skill in the game, and as i said she's the only one who can really gank people from the front (everyone else has to put themselves in very dangerous positions to gank)... also you may not be harassing enough in laning phase, vayne/cait are both good harassers, cait especially.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

09-06-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by T3cK View Post
Ashe is a very easy champion to learn. You basically build up AS and AD at equal rates giving you a steady damage output throughout the entire game. Vayne on the other hand needs a ton of AS right off the bat. A truly good Vayne won't buy any damage until level 10-14 because the proc from silver bolts as well as the stun/knockback on condemn is enough to take people down. I don't have much experience with Cait, but she and Vayne are more hard-carries. Ashe can get a perfectly easy kill at level 1 with volley, ignite and exhaust. Having only one move, Vayne and Caitlin might need teammates with more CC to secure a kill.

Another possibility is that people who have played Ashe for a while tend to be somewhat aggressive once they know her limitations. With only about 360 health to start with, Vayne is a priority target at level 1 as is Caitlin and thus they can't be overaggressive.

Hope this helps!

T3cK

Probably the worst advice ever. No offense, not trying to bag on you, but all of this information is pretty much wrong. You shouldn't be going AS first on Vayne because you shouldn't be leveling Silver Bolts first on Vayne.. Condemn is first to level and scales off AD.

Vayne and Caitlyn both have escapes. Tumble, Condemn, Yordle Snap Trap, and 50 Cal Net allow Vayne and Caitlyn to chase/escape with ease. Caitlyn also has superior range to almost every (if not every) auto-attack in the game (save for Tristana once she's level 16-18).

ALL THREE champions should be building something similar to:

Boots + 3 pots (or 1 Dorans)
(another dorans if sent back early) or Farm until T1 Boots + BF Sword OR Zeal.
Next item is either BF Sword or Zeal, depending on which you got first.

From there, all 3 champs should build either an Infinity Edge or Blood Thirster. Blood Thirster starts weaker than Inf Edge, but ends stronger if it is farmed. After BT/IE, then finish Phantom Dancer from Zeal. From there, Either IE or BT, whichever you didn't buy first.

So, core build for all 3 champs:

Boots (Any except Sorc Shoes or Ionian.)
Blood Thirster
Phantom Dancer
Infinity Edge

The last 2 items are situational but should probably be a defensive item combined with some Armor Pen like Last Whisper or Black Cleaver. BC if you're doing exceptionally well and don't need defense.. LW if people are stacking a lot of armor and/or you're not doing so hot.

Defensive item is usually Banshees Viel or Guardian Angel.. Possibly Warmogs, or, if you have no fear of getting focused, another Phantom Dancer.

Most games do not last beyond the core. Most games I play with an AD Carry the game starts wrapping up about the time I go Inf Edge (Which I build 3rd rather than 1st).

BT is better if you can farm and avoid dying. The ability for you to stay on the map farming makes getting your next items easier. Without life-drain you are limited by your health bar... With Lifedrain you can farm consistantly without ever recalling assuming you do not get ganked... You also have enough attack damage to defend yourself and be useful in team fights and if you happen to go 1v1 against any other AD carry who does not have lifesteal or defensive items, you are more likely to win assuming they do not outlevel you or they are more farmed.

As far as character specific differences?

Ashe is the most difficult AD carry to stay alive with.. BUT, assuming you have good map awareness and positioning she offers the most utility to your team. She has a toggle slow, 2 AOE slows, a long duration stun, and a temporary moving ward. BUT, she also has no gap closers/escapes... so she needs a team to fill in for those weaknesses.

Caitlyn is consistant straight up damage, harass, and lane control. She can farm very easily and control her lane extremely well, which is why she is one of the few AD carrys which you can actually put in middle vs your typical AP Carry (like Annie) and not worry she's going to feed assuming equal skill levels. Between ghost, flash, 50 cal net, and traps, she has a lot of tools for escape, so she is "fairly" safe pushing towers assuming she has traps and wards down. She also is more forgiving if you move out of position.

Vayne is exceptional burst and mobility. She can lock down a single target and drop them before the enemy team knows what happened. Like Caitlyn, she has excellent mobility but it's more aggressive mobility. Much better at chasing/tower diving (hence: assassin), and securing a kill on someone than Ashe, Cait, or MF.

Miss Fortune has a good harass game and some utility with AOE slow/damage, as well as her wide AOE ult. Less single target damage than Cait, but more AOE. Assuming she doesn't get nailed she has great mobility and the ability to position and reposition herself very easily in-lane or in team fights.

The reason the OP is probably best at Ashe is because he has a very passive playstyle (or good teammates), and good positoning. All of these things SHOULD carry over to a very "easy" time playing Vayne/Caitlyn. Practice with their abilities a little more but otherwise try playing them like you would Ashe. Once you have the ability to kite/position down it should make the other AD carrys a breeze.


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Cenerae

Senior Member

09-07-2011

If it makes you feel any better, I'm lousy at Ashe (for some reason I have a tendency to only hit the difficult arrows and miss the easy ones, plus I tend to fail at last hitting early game) but I'm decent with Cait and Vayne. <_<

Really, the only way to correct it is to practise until you're comfortable with their attack animations and playstyles.


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Eviant

Senior Member

09-07-2011

As previously stated, Ashe is a fairly passive playstyle, Initiating from a safe distance, letting your team walk in, then clean up occurs. Vayne is more passive until the fight starts, harassing whatever comes forward, using Bolts and Tumble, but otherwise staying back until the fight truly starts. Then you have to be light on your toes, darting in and out of the fight, and trying to save condemn for that stun. Cait, is more aggressive, but actually tends to lose out in damage (From what I've seen) where Ashe and Vayne continue to rise. Cait, Like Ashe, sits at the back firing off those shots, but not from the same area that Ashe would. She is more off to the side so She can line up her ults. She also has less Team fighting Potential than Ashe or Vayne.


And this is to T3ck and EtherImp. I disagree with both of you on Vayne. Bolts is free heavy harass if you can proc them, (Which I still do frequently) however, AS is not what you build first. It's AD. Your focus is on Farming, then harass. The AD makes Last hitting easier, making it easier to harass and control your lane. Plus it makes every auto hit harder, which means you aren't relying on the Proc, the proc is just a bonus. (And I disagree with Condemn, because It's too situational. Relying on there being a wall just makes it to easy to avoid the Damage from Vayne, as well as the stun. Going Bolts first means I can stand toe to toe with someone, using Condemn to push them away if things aren't going my way)


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clerica

Senior Member

09-07-2011

Oooh ooh I wanna join in this discussion, I love Ashe and Caitlyn but I can't get the hang of Vayne.. where does that put me... >_> I'm ok with MF and Corki.

Anyways, Vayne and Caitlyn are both more aggressive early on than Ashe. Ashe is more utility and less straight out damage (until late in the match). I find that they all have very different playstyles and all have their pros and cons.

I'd say.. Vayne is like an assassin ranged AD (I love melee assassins and caster assassins, maybe I just don't understand her playstyle). Caitlyn is brought for her early game and mowing towers, and Ashe is just super-utility. (Basically what Etherimp said)


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Etherimp

Senior Member

09-07-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eviant View Post
As previously stated, Ashe is a fairly passive playstyle, Initiating from a safe distance, letting your team walk in, then clean up occurs. Vayne is more passive until the fight starts, harassing whatever comes forward, using Bolts and Tumble, but otherwise staying back until the fight truly starts. Then you have to be light on your toes, darting in and out of the fight, and trying to save condemn for that stun. Cait, is more aggressive, but actually tends to lose out in damage (From what I've seen) where Ashe and Vayne continue to rise. Cait, Like Ashe, sits at the back firing off those shots, but not from the same area that Ashe would. She is more off to the side so She can line up her ults. She also has less Team fighting Potential than Ashe or Vayne.


And this is to T3ck and EtherImp. I disagree with both of you on Vayne. Bolts is free heavy harass if you can proc them, (Which I still do frequently) however, AS is not what you build first. It's AD. Your focus is on Farming, then harass. The AD makes Last hitting easier, making it easier to harass and control your lane. Plus it makes every auto hit harder, which means you aren't relying on the Proc, the proc is just a bonus. (And I disagree with Condemn, because It's too situational. Relying on there being a wall just makes it to easy to avoid the Damage from Vayne, as well as the stun. Going Bolts first means I can stand toe to toe with someone, using Condemn to push them away if things aren't going my way)

Argue vs Condemned with TheOddOne. It's a pretty well known fact that Condemn is highest damage output and most utility early game as it scales best with AD.


As to Cenerae: I am the exact same way. I can do just fine (or completely carry) as Caitlyn or Vayne, but I am HORRIBLE with Ashe.


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Turtlerocket

Senior Member

09-07-2011

For Caitlyn, screw Bloodthirster.
Get Gunblade.
Profit from spell vamp on QWER.


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Beaumains

Senior Member

09-07-2011

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the biggest difference between the champs listed by the OP is that Vayne & Cait are more ability based (more ability based damage), while Ash is more auto-attack oriented (having natural crit).


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