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### Armor Pen + Black Cleaver Diminishing returns

budd

Senior Member

Does anyone know the exact formula on diminishing returns for armor pen? Is it capped at a certain percent like some of the abilities. Also, how are armor pen runes combined with items like black cleaver affected by this? I once saw a post about a lot of the rune formulas but i cant seem to find it so if someone could link it, it would be much appreciated. Thanks.

athian

Member

I didnt know it had diminishing returns, I was under the assumption since it cant go passed 0 armor (into the negatives) that it will always lower it.

Burninator

Recruiter

I think armor penetration stacks additively, but cannot bring armor below 0 (because that would interact strangely with % armor reduction like last whisper). I also believe that % reduction (last whisper) takes effect before the flat reduction.

ERazER

Senior Member

It just removes the same amount of armor as the penetration is when calculating damage. There's no diminishing returns, in fact your returns increase the more you have.
For example you have 100 attack damage and attack an enemy with 100 armor.
If you have 0 armor penetration, you will deal 50 damage
If you have 50 armor penetration, you will deal 66.(6) damage
If you have 100 armor penetration, you will deal 100 damage
As you can see the difference increases, the first 50 points of armor penetration give you 16.(6) damage, a 33.(3)% increase, while the next 50 give you 33.(3) damage, a 50% increase.

The order of calculations was posted by guinsoo I think in another topic.
1. Calculate target's armor from items/abilities/buffs/e.t.c.
Black Cleaver applies here because it's not armor penetration, but armor reduction. Your allies will also benefit from it's effect, while they won't from armor penetration.
2. Reduce target's armor by % armor penetration.
Last whisper applies here.
3. Reduce target's armor by static armor penetration.
Runes/masteries/e.t.c. apply here

So items that reduce armor instead of giving armor penetration do not stack fully with the last whisper's effect, while all other combinations stack fully.

budd

Senior Member

Quote:
ERazER:
It just removes the same amount of armor as the penetration is when calculating damage. There's no diminishing returns, in fact your returns increase the more you have.
For example you have 100 attack damage and attack an enemy with 100 armor.
If you have 0 armor penetration, you will deal 50 damage
If you have 50 armor penetration, you will deal 66.(6) damage
If you have 100 armor penetration, you will deal 100 damage
As you can see the difference increases, the first 50 points of armor penetration give you 16.(6) damage, a 33.(3)% increase, while the next 50 give you 33.(3) damage, a 50% increase.

The order of calculations was posted by guinsoo I think in another topic.
1. Calculate target's armor from items/abilities/buffs/e.t.c.
Black Cleaver applies here because it's not armor penetration, but armor reduction. Your allies will also benefit from it's effect, while they won't from armor penetration.
2. Reduce target's armor by % armor penetration.
Last whisper applies here.
3. Reduce target's armor by static armor penetration.
Runes/masteries/e.t.c. apply here

So items that reduce armor instead of giving armor penetration do not stack fully with the last whisper's effect, while all other combinations stack fully.

so say u have black cleaver and last whisper, BC does not fully stack with last whisper?