Suggestion: queue dodging

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HikariKyubi

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Member

06-04-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viro Melchior View Post
The core issues with dodging/afking/leaving currently (as I see them):
Dodging

1a) Dodging is sometimes required. Your teammates pick 3 melee carries and a ranged carry. No matter what you pick, you cannot result in a balanced team (either missing a magic damage champion or missing a tank, AND you have 3 melees, so your laning phase is weak too). Yet typically in these situations, the only player (you) willing to help make a balanced team is the one stuck dodging.

1b) The dodge penalty appears to cap at 10 minutes, which is at least better than a higher cap which encourages afk/leaving.

1c) Dodging becomes out of control every time a new champion comes out, because so many people buy it and want to play it.

1d) Dodging requires you to close the client, which in addition to the penalties means additional strain on the servers (however small it may be, it is extra workload compared to someone just leaving the select screen and afk'ing for 3 or 10 minutes).

AFKing

2a) A large factor for the AFKing is teams that are obviously lobsided but either due to the 25:00 surrender minimum or "newb teammates who won't surrender", a player is forced to play a game that typically involves hugging the tower until 3+ of their team shows up to tower dive.

2b) The surrender vote requires a double majority, which means that 2 players can force 3 players to play out a losing match.

2c) Champions who go AFK in the queue often wind up AFK in the actual game, with a random champion, and their last used spells masteries and runes, giving them further reason not to want to play.

2d) There is ZERO reason not to afk a match if you would otherwise want to leave it. You are actually punished for leaving (leaver mark), but AFKing carries no penalties.

Leavers

3a) Sure there are valid reasons to leave (power outage, work called you in immediately, girlfriend showed up in a nighty, etc), but the game has zero method to differentiate.

3b) The system in place punishes leavers without doing anything to encourage it (for valid reasons), allow you to re-queue, or compensating your teammates.

Solutions:

Dodging

  • Require players to check a ready box for the game to start. After 90 seconds, 2 new checkboxes are available as well: "Re-queue with my ready team" and "Re-queue alone". If everyone on either team who is ready selects the team re-queue, then the game is cancelled, and a re-queue organized (see below). If any player selects the re-queue alone option, a message on the champ select pops up as an FYI, and the server waits for 10 seconds (in case they cancel or the game begins and to allow time to edit your ready/queue status), and then cancels the game and organizes a re-queue.
  • This solves issues with AFK players in the champion select, as well as poor teamcomps (just don't click ready, and when someone decides not to wait for you, you get the minor 2 minute penalty.
  • Allow players to pre-select a champion. This champion will be auto-selected for them at the start of the game. The server will know not to match multiple players who choose the same champion to the same team. This makes all the people who want to play the week's super-popular new champion wait *longer* in the queue, but the rest of the players who just want to keep playing get *shorter* queue times and fewer dodges. Much better than the current 5-dodges-per-successful-game system.

AFKing

  • Drop the surrender timer, but impose an ip/xp penalty to the surrendering team if the option is used before the 25:00 mark. -5% per minute would mean surrenders before 5 minutes are worth 0 ip/xp, and surrenders at 15:00 are worth 50%. From an IP/XP perspective, playing til 25:00 remains the standard. Adjust the numbers as appropriate for smaller maps (ie Twisted Treeline).
  • Change the surrender vote to require only 3 votes after 25:00. The simple majority should be in control, but denying their 2 teammates ip/xp isn't fair "enough".
  • Removal of the current Leaver system (see below) will better discourage afk'ing for any other reason.

Leavers

  • Add a menu option to the game for "Abandon this game". This option actually removes your champion entirely from the game, and gives you a loss on your record. You are allowed to re-queue after a 5 minute "punishment" timer. IP/XP is awarded at the same rate as a surrender (-5% per minute below 25:00 for Summoner's Rift).
  • A player who disconnects for 5 minutes is forced to abandon the game, with a 10 minute timer (which typically won't matter for all valid reasons to suddenly lose connection for 5+ minutes).
  • A new solo player in the queue is asked if he wants to join a game in progress (displaying current tower counts, kill counters, and game timer). He is then shown the champions and summoner spells on his team, and allowed to join when ready. Players doing this are awarded a bonus 50 ip/xp, win or lose, and enter the game 2 levels below the lowest enemy champion, with 400 gold + 100 per minute the game has been going (this results in 2900 gold at the 25:00 mark, which is most definitely "weak").

Results


The new leaver system promotes abandoning a game (at some cost) over AFKing through it, since it actually allows you to get into a new game.
By encouraging a system that players actively choose to leave, the system can then replace them without worry about them coming back.
Joining a losing game as a solo player is still worth it in terms of IP due to the +50 bonus. And with how ELO works, it will only temporarily harm your rating.

Since there is now no reason to just afk through a match, except to be an ass to your teammates, that behavior should see a decline, and those who still do it become easier to isolate and report.

With surrenders available earlier, a truly non-fun lost game can be abandoned while giving the winning team full IP and XP, but not forcing them to stomp on a decidedly worse group of players for the 10 minutes left in the match.

Pre-select champions will cut down on queue dodging in one direction, and having a system in place to handle afk players will decrease it in another. Allowing players to re-queue with their random group will cut down on people who get dodged 4 times and then get matched with a team of all dps (and wind up dodging themselves).
I honestly think this is perfect. No, I think this is bloody awesome. Riot really needs to look at your recommendations. Personally, I think most of this might not be all that hard to implement (being a programmer myself, I can think of a couple of ways to implement these measures [I'd need to really take a close look at the system to be 100% sure on how to do things, though, every system is a system]). Bottom line, this really, really should be considered strongly for a couple of patches down the road.


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

06-10-2010

Well, I've still got my fingers crossed that Riot puts *any* solution to the current system up within another month.
Highly doubt it'll actually happen, but the system they've created rewards people for being asses, and punishes people who actually try and play by the rules.


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

07-12-2010

So - the solution to leavers that Riot chooses?
Increase the penalty system that does NOTHING to address the root of the problem.

There have been many threads detailing ideas that would actually removing the reasons people have for dodging queues, and yet Riot ignores those and instead just ups the lockout duration.

Which, in my case, costs them business. I don't buy skins when I only play 1-2 games/week because I don't have a premade group, and don't enjoy 10+ minute lockouts because I dodged 4 idiots who all wanted to play melee dps.


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V3ND3TT4

Senior Member

07-15-2010

I for the most part Viro's suggestions are great!

I agree completely with the suggested AFK and Leavers fixes.

Carados did have a point as far as preselected champs would cause imbalanced teams...(he did have quite an arrogant holier-than-thou attitude however.)

I think a better fix to the dodgeing problem is to expand on your pre-selected champs idea. Similar to the join party options in a lot of MMORPGs: an automated balancing system.

A balanced team would consist of 1 TANK, 1 MAGIC DD, 1 PHYS DD, and 2 others. yes?

(I say DD (damage dealer) instead of DPS (damage over time) since some characters burst damage and some do damage over time (for instance: normal builds for master yi do physical damage over time while normal annie builds do burst magic damage)

(probably better balances including support, cc, etc. characters, but this makes it simple)

Therefore, allow pre-selection of champions, and then using the matchmaking system, incorporate at least 1 tank pre-selection, 1 phys dps preselection, 1 magic dps pre-selection, per team. Add whoever 2 players who(at that elo) have been waiting the longest to join those last 2 spots.

This, however, becomes more complicated with characters that can be build multiple ways. There would need to be an option of how you are going to build your pre-selected character. (for instance: cho'gath can be tank or magic dd) if no option is presented, an ap cho'gath might be placed in the tank slot of the team causing an imbalanced team. Then you add in a variable of hybrid builds...

So the options could be Tank, Magic DD, Physical DD, and Other.

Thanks Viro for the idea to build upon... (I may have just made it more complicated...)

Now the problem is that you could have balanced solo teams face off against purposefully imbalanced arranged teams...

maybe make 100% solo queues separate from arranged team queues, helping avoid some of the pug stomps we've all had... then you have to deal with partial arranged teams and not having enough solo's to fill the extra spots... I don't know...

Try to fix one problem and cause a host of new ones...

anyway hope I contributed a little.


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

07-19-2010

There is no "perfect fix" unfortunately. The problems are too compound. Like you pointed out, solving the matching system is inherently impossible due to the flexibility that Riot put into each champion.

However, ANY progress would be preferable to watching them twiddle their thumbs and "punish leavers" with the re-queue penalties, instead of punishing the behavior and players that LEAD to the dodging.

1) Players who afk during the queue.
2) Players who pick crappy a "weak" champion, or bad spells, or otherwise show a predisposition towards bad play pre-game.
3) Players who are verbally abusive to their teammates pre-game (and likely throughout the game).
4) Players who are unwilling to pick a different champion, resulting in 3-5 of the same melee dps type of character (or whatever role it happens to be).

Why don't we address THOSE issues, instead of addressing the symptom of those problems?
As was pointed out, the pre-select concept has a ton of issues. However, that doesn't mean that the afk-in-queue-*******s can't be fixed. Implement the ready button. If someone doesn't click it, they get booted with the dodge penalty. No more auto-requeue for afk'ers. Even better if a more complex system is made (which allows more than 90 seconds, which often isn't enough if your team is having balance/talking issues to start, thanks to repicking masteries and spells and champ all taking time).


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Jetware

Member

07-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drei Star View Post
I think ingame leavers need to have a bigger penalty deleveling sounds nice.
Yes please this. Personally I say the penalty for queue dodging should not be as harsh as the penalty for leaving a game (which is currently NOTHING, big deal you get a leaver mark, lol). Make it so that you can leave anytime, but if you leave within 20 games (or whatever number is deemed appropriate) of leaving another game, you get an exp deduction, meaning you might even drop a level. Make it scale as well, if you left a game within 5 games of leaving another one, the exp penalty is harsher. This would be a true penalty to leavers, knowing they might actually drop down a level and lose a talent point and rune slot would surely cause some people to think before rage-quitting. With that said, 1 mastery point and 1 rune slot does not kill someone, so it would be overly harsh for an emergency leave to take this hit (as well, as long as they don't "emergency leave" too often, it won't even affect them).

Only problem with this is it would need to be carefully balanced. Don't make someone drop a level from leaving once in a hundred games.