Suggestion: queue dodging

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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carados View Post
It's a problem.

You "fix" it by making the problem the norm.

The problem is now gone?
It's a troll.

You argue against it.

It can't lose, since it's arguments ignore all reason.


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Carados

Senior Member

05-28-2010

Have you read my posts yet? Or again, are you arguing without actually reading them? I've stated my argument about three times in these three pages.

Or any posts in this thread?


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

05-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carados View Post
Have you read my posts yet? Or again, are you arguing without actually reading them? I've stated my argument about three times in these three pages.

Or any posts in this thread?
Read them.
Re-read them.

Fail to see any direct reasoning, or better suggestions (did you miss the part where I shot down the "draft mode now plzkthx" for the exact reasons you pointed out in the same post you suggested it?


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Carados

Senior Member

05-29-2010

A very small set of queue dodging comes from people choosing an champion another player needs to play. This is the what the "fix" is intending to fix.

Most queue dodging comes from bad team compisition or people playing bad characters, or people generally being ****s and doing things like arguing without reading what others are saying, or people trying to force others to queue dodge for similar reasons..

The problem with the first situation isn't that someone chose the guy's champion first, the problem is that the person came into the game expecting to play one champion.

The proposed fix only encourages people to come into champion selection choosing one champion, which would increase the amount of queue dodging because it would give you unbalanced team compositions right out the gate, and encourage people to play crappy champions. It's a team based game, and you're only encouraging selfish play.

This exact thread came up earlier in General Discussion. Basically, the guy was unable to defend his argument in any way, because it's fairly indefensible.


I'm trying to see what you don't understand.


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Salivation

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Senior Member

05-29-2010

Personally, I love Viro's suggestions, and the suggestion made initially in this thread. Would love to see it all happen.


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Singularity42

Senior Member

05-29-2010

thesaurus much?


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

05-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carados View Post
A very small set of queue dodging comes from people choosing an champion another player needs to play. This is the what the "fix" is intending to fix.

Most queue dodging comes from bad team compisition or people playing bad characters, or people generally being ****s and doing things like arguing without reading what others are saying, or people trying to force others to queue dodge for similar reasons..

The problem with the first situation isn't that someone chose the guy's champion first, the problem is that the person came into the game expecting to play one champion.

The proposed fix only encourages people to come into champion selection choosing one champion, which would increase the amount of queue dodging because it would give you unbalanced team compositions right out the gate, and encourage people to play crappy champions. It's a team based game, and you're only encouraging selfish play.

This exact thread came up earlier in General Discussion. Basically, the guy was unable to defend his argument in any way, because it's fairly indefensible.


I'm trying to see what you don't understand.
Yes, on the bulk of days "oh noes you took my champ" is a fairly low-rated reason for dodging.
That said, allowing pre-select will not INCREASE bad team balances. Why? Because if the person was predisposed to a single champ before the match, they're going to pick that champ whether they get to before or not.
There *is* an option to "select no champ" at queue time. This is what I see most people selecting if they are truly open to multiple champs. Or picking their favorite, and then changing in the team chat screen.
Likewise, it does not ENCOURAGE crappy champions. I see no correlation, unless you think my suggestion involves sorting the champion list inverted by popularity with IP bonuses for playing the least popular (and generally therefore weaker overall).

The initial part of the suggestion, allowing pre-select, does not actively encourage any bad traits. Yes it makes it easier to select a "bad" champ beforehand, but guess what? That means your teammates now have the entire teamchat phase to see who you're playing, instead of the all-to-common people who don't select until :20.

Then I followed that part up with methods to allow dodging out of those bad teamcomps easier. That is a MUCH more complicated issue, and something that Riot, who have a firm understanding of the server workload and capacities involved, should be analyzing, not us theorycrafting players.
Sure it isn't perfect, but without inside information about what the queue server is capable of, and the extra workload required for such things as matching teams up based not only on ELO, but also on champion roles, it would be too far out into the ballpark to have any useful applications.


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Carados

Senior Member

05-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viro Melchior View Post
Yes, on the bulk of days "oh noes you took my champ" is a fairly low-rated reason for dodging.
That said, allowing pre-select will not INCREASE bad team balances. Why? Because if the person was predisposed to a single champ before the match, they're going to pick that champ whether they get to before or not.
The difference is that you're condoing the behavior, instead of simply ignoring it. If something is seemed to have support by the game as a whole, it's far more likely for people to adopt that behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viro Melchior View Post
Likewise, it does not ENCOURAGE crappy champions.
See above.


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

05-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carados View Post
The difference is that you're condoing the behavior, instead of simply ignoring it. If something is seemed to have support by the game as a whole, it's far more likely for people to adopt that behavior.
See above.
Okay, so Carados, your system is that every game, before the game starts, the team gets to vote. Every player will get a -4 to +4 score.
Anyone who gets a -3 or -4 gets booted from the game with a 1 day ban.
Anyone who gets a -1 or -2 gets booted from the game with a 2 minute re-queue penalty.
If nobody gets booted on either team, the game begins.

This DEFINITELY sounds like it will:
  1. Deter people from selfishly choosing champions
  2. Deter people from picking their champion and going afk or otherwise not talking.
  3. Deter people from insulting other players pre-game.
  4. Deter people from picking good champs, but not being willing to change to improve a teamcomp.

Those are the "roots" of the issue, according to you right? Free will?

How about we go one better. Every game, the SERVER picks your champions for you. 1 from the tank pool, 1 from the carry pool, 1 from the nuker pool, 1 from the support pool, and 1 from all 4 pools combined?
That way the teams are always balanced!

The issue with trying to address the "root" of the dodge issues, Carados, is that that ROOT is the fact that players ARE allowed to pick their champions, and not everyone picks well. Changing that changes the fundamental nature of the game to something far more random.


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Carados

Senior Member

05-29-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viro Melchior View Post
Okay, so Carados, your system is that every game, before the game starts, the team gets to vote. Every player will get a -4 to +4 score.
Anyone who gets a -3 or -4 gets booted from the game with a 1 day ban.
Anyone who gets a -1 or -2 gets booted from the game with a 2 minute re-queue penalty.
If nobody gets booted on either team, the game begins.

This DEFINITELY sounds like it will:
  1. Deter people from selfishly choosing champions
  2. Deter people from picking their champion and going afk or otherwise not talking.
  3. Deter people from insulting other players pre-game.
  4. Deter people from picking good champs, but not being willing to change to improve a teamcomp.
  1. What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viro Melchior View Post
Those are the "roots" of the issue, according to you right? Free will?
No, the problem is that people use their free will to screw over other people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Viro Melchior View Post
How about we go one better. Every game, the SERVER picks your champions for you. 1 from the tank pool, 1 from the carry pool, 1 from the nuker pool, 1 from the support pool, and 1 from all 4 pools combined?
That way the teams are always balanced!
Except, I've never claimed that any given team consisting one of of each "role" is a balanced team.

In fact, I've claimed many times, in discussions similar to these, the exact opposite.

To actually argue against this idea.

So, you're actually making the same argument I've made against this... to support it?

But yeah, strawman.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Viro Melchior View Post
The issue with trying to address the "root" of the dodge issues, Carados, is that that ROOT is the fact that players ARE allowed to pick their champions, and not everyone picks well. Changing that changes the fundamental nature of the game to something far more random.
I agree. Why are we changing it again?


And with all of this, I must ask then, how does this suggestion, in the first post, solve the dodge issue at all with everything that you and I have posted?