Why do people think Evasion and Nimbleness are good in the defense tree?

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Melroy

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Senior Member

09-02-2011

I may be misinformed or something, but 2% chance to dodge is tiny. Unless I am someone like Jax where I want dodge, why is this a good mastery over other choices in the defense tree. 2% seems like such a clutch thing that would barely happen, is it worth the 4 mastery points?


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Tol Eressea

Senior Member

09-02-2011

If you are using dodge runes, that talent is more and more useful. Taking it by itself without runes to back it does seem a little strange.


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VinTheRockDiesel

Senior Member

09-02-2011

With 4 dodge seals and Ninja Tabi, your tanky DPS or tank now takes no damage and moves faster roughly every 5th attack against him (17% dodge). This allows you to get to your endangered teammates or to endanger your enemies pretty nicely.


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Axemdrake

Senior Member

09-02-2011

If you aren't getting the dodge runes or planning to buy any form of dodge then you're right, don't take it.


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vSprixus

Senior Member

09-02-2011

it stacks with other dodge. also, 2% attack damage reduction is pretty awesome once you have 200+ armour. Also some people just want nimbleness. specialy if there is a chance they will get ninja tabi/playing sivir.


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Cenerae

Senior Member

09-02-2011

If you have no other source of dodge, then there's no point taking it.

If you have dodge runes or are playing someone like Jax, Sivir or Udyr who get innate dodge chance (or if you're playing on Twisted Treeline, where ninja tabi get used a lot more often), then Nimbleness becomes a good way to increase your movement speed on the fly.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

09-02-2011

I agree that these talents are usually very lousy. Mathematically speaking, 1 point of armor is identical to 1 point of dodge, if you dont already have any armor or dodge.

As you get more and more dodge, each point becomes more valuable...BUT only really significant at very high unattainable values. i.e if you had 90% dodge and could get 10% more, your effective health would rise to infinity. At 50% dodge, +1% is twice as good as if you started at 0% dodge.

This is why Jax and Sivir and even Nidalee(before remake) would take dodge, but even with 20% jax dodge +12% boots = thats only 32%. An extra 2% added isn't much better than on a champ with 0% dodge to start with. You cant stack PhantomDancers anymore for even moar dodge. (besides, dodge is added multiplicatively not additavely which totally negates the benefit of stacking dodge! i.e. a 90% dodge and a 10% dodge item = 91% dodge.)

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Dodge becomes more valuable late game. For example, if you already have 100 armor, adding 1% dodge is TWICE as good as 1 more point of armor. At 200 armor, it is 3x as good.

However, dodge typically costs twice as much as armor. An armor quint adds 2x as much as dodge. Yellow runes are more efficient for dodge than armor adding .75% each, vs 1.3ish armor instead of the 1.5 one would expect.
One mastery point can get +2 armor or 0.5% dodge...making it 4x as expensive.


This is why I belive dodge from masteries is so bad... its WAY overpriced. +6 armor will help a TON more than 1.5% dodge would, until you got to ridiculous levels of armor (300+).

For yellow runes however, where you can get 1.8 armor for 1pt of dodge, the Dodge is the better lategame way to go. But due to armor pen runes, Id still prefer the armor during laning...and armor is obviously better for jungling.


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Melroy

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Senior Member

09-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
I agree that these talents are usually very lousy. Mathematically speaking, 1 point of armor is identical to 1 point of dodge, if you dont already have any armor or dodge.

As you get more and more dodge, each point becomes more valuable...BUT only really significant at very high unattainable values. i.e if you had 90% dodge and could get 10% more, your effective health would rise to infinity. At 50% dodge, +1% is twice as good as if you started at 0% dodge.

This is why Jax and Sivir and even Nidalee(before remake) would take dodge, but even with 20% jax dodge +12% boots = thats only 32%. An extra 2% added isn't much better than on a champ with 0% dodge to start with. You cant stack PhantomDancers anymore for even moar dodge. (besides, dodge is added multiplicatively not additavely which totally negates the benefit of stacking dodge! i.e. a 90% dodge and a 10% dodge item = 91% dodge.)

---------------
Dodge becomes more valuable late game. For example, if you already have 100 armor, adding 1% dodge is TWICE as good as 1 more point of armor. At 200 armor, it is 3x as good.

However, dodge typically costs twice as much as armor. An armor quint adds 2x as much as dodge. Yellow runes are more efficient for dodge than armor adding .75% each, vs 1.3ish armor instead of the 1.5 one would expect.
One mastery point can get +2 armor or 0.5% dodge...making it 4x as expensive.


This is why I belive dodge from masteries is so bad... its WAY overpriced. +6 armor will help a TON more than 1.5% dodge would, until you got to ridiculous levels of armor (300+).

For yellow runes however, where you can get 1.8 armor for 1pt of dodge, the Dodge is the better lategame way to go. But due to armor pen runes, Id still prefer the armor during laning...and armor is obviously better for jungling.
Thanks for the in depth analysis! This is kinda what I thought. Like, dodge in the late game, when built for it, runes and items, is great and awesome, but early game and in games where you won't build dodge, the mastery is kinda a waste.


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ForeverLaxx

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Senior Member

09-02-2011

Or you could be like some mana-less champions taking the Defense tree and not have to decide if you want dodge, armor, or SoS by taking all the resist masteries, the dodge mastery, and the nimbleness mastery. It won't come up often, but if you get all those minions attacking you when you harass an enemy, you will get that measly 2% dodge to proc for bonus speed that you can use to continue pressuring or to escape. That's just the nature of pseudo-random number generators. If you play WoW, you'd know how often a "5% chance" can go off, and it's basically the same here.


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Terchio

Senior Member

09-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
As you get more and more dodge, each point becomes more valuable...BUT only really significant at very high unattainable values. i.e if you had 90% dodge and could get 10% more, your effective health would rise to infinity. At 50% dodge, +1% is twice as good as if you started at 0% dodge.
I don't know what you are saying, as you gave the correct info later in your post. Dodge stacks multiplicatively, like armor and magic resist, meaning effectively that at 50% dodge, adding an effect with 1% more dodge improves your dodge to the point that you dodge 1% of what you weren't dodging. That increase would therefore add 1% * 50/100 = 0.5% dodge. That doesn't make it useless, it just makes it stack evenly with some other qualities such as armor and magic resist. You cannot block all damage through armor/magic resist, nor can you dodge all damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
Dodge becomes more valuable late game. For example, if you already have 100 armor, adding 1% dodge is TWICE as good as 1 more point of armor. At 200 armor, it is 3x as good.
True to a small degree, but as mentioned, dodge's cost drops to the cost of adding armor around the point you hit 150+ armor, being generous. If you have 100 armor, dodge does become twice as powerful, but so does HP, Health Regen, and Life Steal, as long as we're only talking physical damage, and those effects don't start near as useless as dodge does early game. Dodge is a true gambler's stat, and if you are going to use it well, you'd be best to do so only once other defensive measures are stacked up to a high scale, unless you have a character that can use the effects from dodge well, such as from the nimbleness ability. The only reason I'd think of getting dodge anymore would be through Ninja Tabi in games physical attackers are majorly stacked against you, and even then many physical spells cannot be dodge, and a good team will have the CC to pound you down through nimbleness if they really need to.