Odyn's Veil will be very underutilized

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OxBaker

Senior Member

09-02-2011

Think about it for a sec. If you just stop at getting a Catalyst and Negatron cloak for 2065 gold, you get...

+290 Health
+325 Mana
+48 MR
Passive: Upon leveling up, restores 250 health and 200 mana over 8 seconds.

Compared to upgrading them to Odyn's Veil which gives you...

+350 Health
+350 Mana
+50 Magic Resistance
Passive: Reduces and stores 10% of the magic damage dealt to your champion.
Active: Deals 200 + (stored magic) [max: 400] to nearby enemy units. 90 second cooldown

Because of how often you level on Dominion, Catalyst's passive on it's own will be very handy for most of the match. But if you rush Odyn's Veil for an additional 650 gold, you are trading that valuable passive for an active that can only be used every 90 seconds and only viably after you have taken a lot of magic damage. Considering how short the matches are, that will be very few uses.

And then you only gain

+60 Health
+25 Mana
+10% Magic Damage Reduction

Seems to me that it's not worth upgrading the Catalyst and Cloak until you really need the extra inventory spot which is only going to be during the last few minutes of the round.

So I hope RIOT considers beefing up Odyn's Veil a bit. It has the potential to be a good core item but as it stands it looks like you are better off keeping it's components for as long as possible.


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Ragnar Draconus

Senior Member

09-02-2011

You realize its active is a potential 600 damage AoE nuke right?


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rumples

Senior Member

09-02-2011

^ and also the damage reduction wont be subject to the free global penetration, unlike mres


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Yaezakura

Senior Member

09-02-2011

The same argument can be made for upgrading to Banshee's Veil in Summoner's Rift. You're giving up the Catalyst passive for the Veil passive.

And I really think you're underestimating how large an effect a straight 10% damage reduction from magic can be. As far as I'm concerned, the nuke is pure gravy.


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OxBaker

Senior Member

09-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar Draconus View Post
You realize its active is a potential 600 damage AoE nuke right?
OK, let's put that into perspective. The only time you can nuke for that much is after you have taken 4000 magic damage. So let's look at a perfect scenario.

Say you rush it and manage to get it at the 5 minute mark. And lets say your opponents are hitting you with only magic damage so that you can get the most absorption before triggering.

You won't have enough health to absorb that much magic damage when you first get it so lets estimate that at 7 minutes into the match you can trigger it for 300 damage and by the end of the match (~20 min) you are really beefy and triggering it for the full 600 damage. That means over those 13 minutes you are averaging 450 AOE damage per trigger.

And lets say you can perfectly pull off using it ever 90 seconds exactly. Meaning you have stored up as much magic damage as is physically possible for you without dieing just as each 90 sec rolls around. That means in that 13 minutes you will have used it 8 times.

So in a very unrealistic best case scenario that active will add 8x450=3600 damage to your entire game. The realistic amount triggered over the life of this item will probably be less than half that (if you're lucky).

Now consider the Catalysts passive by itself. 250 Health and 200 Mana when you level. Earliest you can pick it up is starting at level 3. In a 20 min game from what I saw you usually get to lvl 18. And the action is intense enough that you will probably have burned through some health and mana in order to gain each lvl. So that's close to 3750 Health and 3000 Mana so long as you pick Catalyst up first and reach lvl 18.

So the trade off of rushing Veil early is potentially damaging opponents for 3600 (probably far less than that) or potentially gaining 3750 Health and 3000 Mana?

I know these are very general calcs off the top of my head but they do show that it's not really worth upgrading early unless you are playing a reeeeeaaaally beefy champ against a veeeeeeery magic heavy team.


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Shay Corporation

Member

09-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by OxBaker View Post
OK, let's put that into perspective. The only time you can nuke for that much is after you have taken 4000 magic damage. So let's look at a perfect scenario.

Say you rush it and manage to get it at the 5 minute mark. And lets say your opponents are hitting you with only magic damage so that you can get the most absorption before triggering.

You won't have enough health to absorb that much magic damage when you first get it so lets estimate that at 7 minutes into the match you can trigger it for 300 damage and by the end of the match (~20 min) you are really beefy and triggering it for the full 600 damage. That means over those 13 minutes you are averaging 450 AOE damage per trigger.

And lets say you can perfectly pull off using it ever 90 seconds exactly. Meaning you have stored up as much magic damage as is physically possible for you without dieing just as each 90 sec rolls around. That means in that 13 minutes you will have used it 8 times.

So in a very unrealistic best case scenario that active will add 8x450=3600 damage to your entire game. The realistic amount triggered over the life of this item will probably be less than half that (if you're lucky).

Now consider the Catalysts passive by itself. 250 Health and 200 Mana when you level. Earliest you can pick it up is starting at level 3. In a 20 min game from what I saw you usually get to lvl 20. And the action is intense enough that you will probably have burned through some health and mana in order to gain each lvl. So that's close to 4250 Health and 3400 Mana so long as you pick Catalyst up first and reach lvl 20.

So the trade off of rushing Veil early is potentially damaging opponents for 3600 (probably far less than that) or potentially gaining 4250 Health and 3400 Mana?

I know these are very general calcs off the top of my head but they do show that it's not really worth upgrading early unless you are playing a reeeeeaaaally beefy champ against a veeeeeeery magic heavy team.

And you've negated 20 thousand damage you didn't need to take (by having Odyn's).

You're kinda forgetting to throw in the important statistic to make your argument look better.


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OxBaker

Senior Member

09-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaezakura View Post
The same argument can be made for upgrading to Banshee's Veil in Summoner's Rift. You're giving up the Catalyst passive for the Veil passive.

And I really think you're underestimating how large an effect a straight 10% damage reduction from magic can be. As far as I'm concerned, the nuke is pure gravy.
Eh, you would think 10% magic damage reduction is a lot but I main Maokai and so I'm often standing in an ult that gives 20% magic and physical reduction. Sure it sounds good on paper but in practice it honestly doesn't keep you alive for that much longer.

And the difference between Dominion and SR is that you don't nearly level as often in SR and the matches last a lot longer so a passive that triggers per level on SR compared to an active every 90 seconds makes the active much more valuable than on a 20 min match like Dominion's. What I mean is that Catalyst will have roughly the same number of triggers on Dominion and SR but a 90 second active will trigger up to 3 times as often in a SR match.


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OxBaker

Senior Member

09-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shay Corporation View Post
And you've negated 20 thousand damage you didn't need to take (by having Odyn's).

You're kinda forgetting to throw in the important statistic to make your argument look better.
Well, honestly I'm old enough that I can admit you got me there. But that's just because my best case scenario is so unrealistic.

You're absolutely right. You'll never absorb 20k in magic damage alone during a 20 minute match in order to even do that 3600 damage I suggested. That's why I said realistically the damage dealt is way less.

Edit: Keep in mind that to absorb 20k of damage, you would have had to have taken ~180k of actual magic damage. And so if you have any reasonable lvl of MR, that means the enemies would have had to have put out over 250k of magic damage to you alone for you to get your 3600 veil damage. See where I'm coming from now?


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Shay Corporation

Member

09-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by OxBaker View Post
Well, honestly I'm old enough that I can admit you got me there. But that's just because my best case scenario is so unrealistic.

You're absolutely right. You'll never absorb 20k in magic damage alone during a 20 minute match in order to even do that 3600 damage I suggested. That's why I said realistically the damage dealt is way less.

Edit: Keep in mind that to absorb 20k of damage, you would have had to have taken ~180k of actual magic damage.
I'll be fair and admit you'll probably absorb less if you knock two procs of Catalyst off your equations since level 20 doesn't exist.

Edit: Also, 180k only seems like an unrealistic number if you take into account that you spend maybe a quarter of the time in Summoner's Rift in a situation where you're likely to take heavy magic damage (Unless you're mid against Annie. Hue.) Whereas in Crystal Scar you're much more likely to be forced into these situations all game.


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OxBaker

Senior Member

09-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shay Corporation View Post
I'll be fair and admit you'll probably absorb less if you knock two procs of Catalyst off your equations since level 20 doesn't exist.

Edit: Also, 180k only seems like an unrealistic number if you take into account that you spend maybe a quarter of the time in Summoner's Rift in a situation where you're likely to take heavy magic damage (Unless you're mid against Annie. Hue.) Whereas in Crystal Scar you're much more likely to be forced into these situations all game.
whoops. Too much caffeine. I'll correct that.

Edit: OK, Let's consider it again. Even with the action being intense in Crystal scar you will only have your Veil for around 15 minutes. 180k of actual damage taken over 15 minutes is on average 12k magic damage per minute. And just picking a number out of the air, say on average you are fairly beefy and have 3.5k max health on average during those 15 minutes.

That would mean that you have been damaged to the full extent your health allows by magic damage alone 3.4 times each minute. So each minute you are coming within a sliver of health 3.4 times, triggering your veil, escaping and healing to full, non stop, over the entire 15 minutes you have the veil in order to do the 3600 damage.

This is starting to remind me of the Seinfeld episode with the magic loogie


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