[Tweak] Thornmail

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zelosse

Senior Member

08-30-2011

Most of you are aware that every champion has spells designated to do lots of damage, others rely on autoattacks to get the job done. Why is it that with the purchase of thornmail you simply become extremely difficult to deal with to that Enemy AD?
Because you can't counter thornmail without 30% lifesteal and some MR to cancel it's effects.

Thornmail at the moment gives 100 armor and 30% damage return to all autoattacks, that's just not fair to the AD's. Whole team builds tanky with a thornmail and suddenly you are useless the rest of the game.

My biggest problem is that RANGED suffer the same damage return as someone who would be up close and personal.

For a good balance tweak to stop this being the cheapest($) and easiest way to balance this item would be to give it a much needed tweak on the percentage of damage return.

Melee autoattacks - 25% damage return
Ranged autoattacks - 15% damage return

I understand it's a 'magic' item but from a very basic standpoint, the closer your blade is to it the more damage you would take, taking full damage because I shot him with, say, tristana or Miss Forturne is farfetched.

This simple little tweak would better even out the item in general. I expect rage from Tank-mains who like this easy counter how it is.


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Shakuro

Member

08-30-2011

If the entire enemy team was spending their cash on thornmail to counter the AD on my team, I'd be happy. In this ideal scenario, my team would also have AP champions that would eat them for breakfast, and my team has forced the enemy team to be 2000 gold behind on their core builds.

(As everyone including nukers on their team apparently went straight for thornmails )

Also I don't believe that its 30% true damage, its 30% of the damage you do to them (after armour reductions) is then returned to you as magic damage. So if you have some MR at all, its further reduced. But you know, any way you look at this item its not the 'counter every AD' champion item you have described it to be. The only time a thornmail would ruin the enemy AD, is if they have gone glass-cannon, with no HP, no lifesteal and no magic resist.


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Enraged Pickle

Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakuro View Post
If the entire enemy team was spending their cash on thornmail to counter the AD on my team, I'd be happy. In this ideal scenario, my team would also have AP champions that would eat them for breakfast, and my team has forced the enemy team to be 2000 gold behind on their core builds.

(As everyone including nukers on their team apparently went straight for thornmails )

Also I don't believe that its 30% true damage, its 30% of the damage you do to them (after armour reductions) is then returned to you as magic damage. So if you have some MR at all, its further reduced. But you know, any way you look at this item its not the 'counter every AD' champion item you have described it to be. The only time a thornmail would ruin the enemy AD, is if they have gone glass-cannon, with no HP, no lifesteal and no magic resist.
Btw, you need all 3 "no"s to be actually useful against.
A quick math crunching,
If the reflected damage is 40 (like Sunfire), with 50% reduction which is a very low value for someone who has Thornmail (Thornmail @ lvl 1 is above 50% reduction...). I'm giving it the impossible best case scenario. Maybe the enemy has a lot of ArPen. If 30% is 40 then 100% is 133. Then the attack's AD need to be 266. A typicall reduction for magic damage is 25% without any MR items. Thats reducing the 40 damage to 30 damage. You're telling me, if you deal 266 damage per hit you can't afford to grab a lifesteal item to get 30 health back?


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PhailRaptor

Adjudicator

08-30-2011

Mathmatical error detected. Thornmail determines how much damage it returns to you BEFORE Armor is taken into account. So if you deal 100 damage to them, while having 30% lifesteal, and they have a Thornmail, you would take 30 damage back, but your 100 is reduced below 50 (ignoring base Armor for speed of calculation). Your lifesteal will only affect the (less than) 50 damage you actually deal to them, healing you a mere 15 health (maximum!).

The correct counter to Thornmail is not lifesteal, but MR.


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Shakuro

Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhailRaptor View Post
Mathmatical error detected. Thornmail determines how much damage it returns to you BEFORE Armor is taken into account. So if you deal 100 damage to them, while having 30% lifesteal, and they have a Thornmail, you would take 30 damage back, but your 100 is reduced below 50 (ignoring base Armor for speed of calculation). Your lifesteal will only affect the (less than) 50 damage you actually deal to them, healing you a mere 15 health (maximum!).

The correct counter to Thornmail is not lifesteal, but MR.
Learn something new every day, cheers.

With that being said and corrected, I still do not see thornmail being the AD-carry breaking item.


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Augustice

Senior Member

08-31-2011

Instead of Thornmail being a problem, would it ever occur to you to build a defensive item yourself?


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Medusa264

Senior Member

08-31-2011

Fail, The ranged person should be the one who is taking more damage from thornmail(if) it needed readjusting at all. It doesnt make any sense to have the ranged take less damage, they are already at less of a risk than the up close and personal melee DPS.


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l1lshadow

Senior Member

08-31-2011

You can get Bloodthirster and Last Whisper. The two items won't hurt you if you go ad unless you are following a strict build. Even if you still take damage from thornmail you won't die in 2 seconds because of this.
You can also get magic resistance like Banshee's Veil or FoN. Banshee's Veil for better effective health or FoN for pure magic mitigation and move speed.


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NBot

Senior Member

08-31-2011

well not much more than i can add to this but the part where ive been seeing quite a few thornmail posts today, all i can say is get MR and lifesteal


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Dr Fagget

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Senior Member

09-02-2011

Buy a HEXDRINKER


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