[Guide] Katarina Done Right (Not a newbie guide)

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peyo

Senior Member

05-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyzar View Post
During a teamfight, you leap all over the place doing insane amounts of damage. Let me paint you the picture of a typical fight for an AP kat that an AD Kat could never pull off for reasons that I'm happy to explain. Katarina is a MOBILE NUKER. You should be bouncing all over the place for the entire fight. I've seen to many AD Kat's shunpo in and then after their Lotus is over they are pathetic and useless and roam around being free kills where as an AP Kat has the burst damage required to turn a Team fight around.
I lol'd

so you tell me that you kill everyone with just Shunpo? You're badass o_O After Shunpo, you have to use ulti or you're useless (unless you have Lich Bane, which you don't take at all. if you do have it, then you get just 1 more burst). If you didn't get the kill with Shunpo + LB + Death Lotus, you're useless for another few seconds.

AD Kat can harrass before the battle starts. When she Shunpo in for that little damage, but followed with auto attack, she gets almost the same damage as AP (sure it won't be as high as AP untill very long games). If she adds a BB, she'll deal way more damage.

Another things I lol'd at"
- leveling BB over KI is just a fail. If you don't go AD, your BB does completely nothing, so there is NO point to level it up. KI is a BADASS skill, which you don't seem to understand.
- Abyssal Scepter together with Void? wtf?! Abyssal is a fail
- "Masteries: 21/0/9: Katarina is a mobile nuker and built around cooldowns rather then mana." I Have to say: "No ****, sherlock" o_O
Anyway, if you want CDR (which is not as good on Kat as on other champs), you have to go: 9/0/21. But it's not that good, since Utility Tree is mostly Mana-giving. 9/21/0 is THE BEST set up, no matter if you play AP or AD.
- not getting Soulstealer/SotO actually is a FAIL for me. It is really easy to stack them up with Kat. Why? She is easy to kill with and easy to escape. And as you're running with Cleanse (I prefer Ignite) it's even much easier. Snowballs are waste of gold? Not really. They are priceworthy at 5 stacks already. If you can't keep up these 5 at least, you better change the champ.
- taking Nashor's Tooth. I was like wtf oO How is it even close to be good? It gives what? Mana Regen? Badass oO Attack Speed? wait, you're AP, you don't use auto attacks and it sucks even for AD. So bassicaly you're paying 3k gold for 55AP and 25% CDR which is a waste, thanks to your Passive.

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Originally Posted by Ebonclaw View Post
I only voted you down because you're insane.

I play Kat as AP on TT, because it's not as durable a build (no, stacking BFs isn't wise) as my tankish AD build for SR, and she plays very nicely. But, being quite experienced with both builds, I can honestly tell you that against serious opponents in 5v5, you need an AD based build in order to prosper.
TT is the map, where AP build works. Rylai and Haunting Guise will get you quite a nice ammount of kills. Giving you, in the same time, a survivability that you NEED at TT. Also, maxing Shunpo over BB is better for TT, as you need to jump here and there (wards are a savior for Kat in TT). You have no possibility to get all the usefullness from BB.


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Alyzar

Senior Member

05-19-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by peyo View Post
I lol'd

so you tell me that you kill everyone with just Shunpo? You're badass o_O After Shunpo, you have to use ulti or you're useless (unless you have Lich Bane, which you don't take at all. if you do have it, then you get just 1 more burst). If you didn't get the kill with Shunpo + LB + Death Lotus, you're useless for another few seconds.
Typically, yes. My first ult kills 1-2 people, because I know how to position my hero. I also try to avoid harrassing before a teamfight because Katarina works best when she leaps in unexpectedly. If you don't get the killl with Shunpo + BB + Death lotus + exhaust(sometimes) on the squishy, from behind no less there is literally something wrong with you, it's probably because you shunpo'd in from behind your team, offered no surprise to the enemy, and your Lotus probably didn't hit anyone for more then 1 second or so. The entire idea of the lotus is to position yourself for maximum damage. That is how you pull off the triple kills.

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AD Kat can harrass before the battle starts. When she Shunpo in for that little damage, but followed with auto attack, she gets almost the same damage as AP (sure it won't be as high as AP untill very long games). If she adds a BB, she'll deal way more damage.
If you are lurking on the lines of a fight throwing off the odd BB before scooting back behind your tank, you're doing it wrong. Katarina is an ASSASSIN. You should be lurking in the shadows ready to pounce on a squishy. That's what a shunpo is for. You can literally come out of nowhere with insane amounts of IMMEDIATE damage.

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Another things I lol'd at"
- leveling BB over KI is just a fail. If you don't go AD, your BB does completely nothing, so there is NO point to level it up. KI is a BADASS skill, which you don't seem to understand.
- Abyssal Scepter together with Void? wtf?! Abyssal is a fail
Uh.. for me it does 200-400 damage. Not entirely sure how that is minuscule, especially when the build relies upon as much burst damage as possible within that tiny period.

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- "Masteries: 21/0/9: Katarina is a mobile nuker and built around cooldowns rather then mana." I Have to say: "No ****, sherlock" o_O
Pointless tryhard flaming.
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Anyway, if you want CDR (which is not as good on Kat as on other champs), you have to go: 9/0/21. But it's not that good, since Utility Tree is mostly Mana-giving. 9/21/0 is THE BEST set up, no matter if you play AP or AD.
The thing about that is that I have things like Zhonya's Ring and I actually killl people quickly so I can shunpo out. I'm not so pitiful that I need a crutch.

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- not getting Soulstealer/SotO actually is a FAIL for me. It is really easy to stack them up with Kat. Why? She is easy to kill with and easy to escape. And as you're running with Cleanse (I prefer Ignite) it's even much easier. Snowballs are waste of gold? Not really. They are priceworthy at 5 stacks already. If you can't keep up these 5 at least, you better change the champ.
People getting Mejai even when they are at 1/4 has put a bad taste in my mouth. It's purely preference.

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- taking Nashor's Tooth. I was like wtf oO How is it even close to be good? It gives what? Mana Regen? Badass oO Attack Speed? wait, you're AP, you don't use auto attacks and it sucks even for AD. So bassicaly you're paying 3k gold for 55AP and 25% CDR which is a waste, thanks to your Passive.
Yes, it's not the best item to get but I like it and if I get it, it's usually when the game is almost over. Also, you already pointed out that I'm useless if I don't get a kill with my ultimate, but then you point out that getting cool down reductions is a waste? : l I fail to see the logic.


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Kitap

Member

05-19-2010

tastes differ but obviously going hybrid rather than full AP is much much better but still it should be biased towards AD.
AD has better BB and a better ratio for DL (not to mention a bonus base AD) , only item worthwhile that gives AP is rylais. and thats only cos it lets you get full potential out of lotus by a slowing shunpo, somewhere armor has been mentioned as if enemies dont get magic resist and surely they want to protect against ur DL or shunpo rather than BB.

attack speed is pretty much useless imo, if they run away you can shunpo and hit, if they dont you can still shunpo and hit and u dont need speed since more dmg = better abilities.

and i think he meant CDR isnt that necessary since ur CD are low enough and they reduce 15 sc after kills?


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kipsus

Member

05-19-2010

I used to do a pure boots>gause>lots of BT AD build but it's only good for pubstomping or with a VERY competent team that will keep the enemies attention from focusing you down in a blink of an eye.
Now my usual setup includes SotO, giants belt>sunfire/rylai/whatever. This gives me a huge survivability boots and some AOE and/or AP boost.
And I have yet to see an AP kat live that would kick MY ass. Sure, AP lotus is nice, but AD oriented build are so much more versatile.


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Fruz

Member

05-20-2010

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Simply put, Katarina is meant to be AP
That's a bad beginning for a guide :>.

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Masteries: 21/0/9: Katarina is a mobile nuker and built around cooldowns rather then mana. Rather then wasting gold on items that don't fit her, you should be utilizing the golem as much as possible.
other champs in your will need the golem more than you ( every champion actually, but not Katarina ), its stupid to want to max the CD reduction where your passive gives enough in team fight.

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Despite what some think, Ki shouldn't really take a total focus over your damage
maxing Ki after Shunpo with an AP build ? is that a joke ? >_<

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Without a doubt, Cleanse and Exhaust. Cleanse makes it so easy to bait foolish Ashe's or to juke out of a TF stun in early game, and an extremely awesome "Oh ****" button or an amazing way to get someone who is just out of your reach due to a slow/stun. Exhaust because the only thing that Katarina really needs to perfect herself is a bit of control to keep people in her Lotus grasp.
/agree for cleanse.
For exhaust, the Lotus has the Rylai with AP build to control and correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't use exhaust while doing the DL. It's a good summoner spell, but not the only one working well on Kata ( I'm thinking about ignite for example ).

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Items:AP. AP. AP!!! So many people go AD and completely miss the entire idea of what Kat is about. An AD kat Shunpos in and has to hit for a few moments where as an AP Kat shunpos in and takes down an Ashe in 1 second before she Shunpo's to safety. AP Is a needed tool to enforce the idea that Kat is a mobile nuker. During a teamfight, you leap all over the place doing insane amounts of damage. Let me paint you the picture of a typical fight for an AP kat that an AD Kat could never pull off for reasons that I'm happy to explain. Katarina is a MOBILE NUKER. You should be bouncing all over the place for the entire fight. I've seen to many AD Kat's shunpo in and then after their Lotus is over they are pathetic and useless and roam around being free kills where as an AP Kat has the burst damage required to turn a Team fight around.
I find actually that what you said like that sucks hard.
The 2 way building Katarina are AP or AD and work fine.
I prefer personnaly the AD way to build Katarina :

- BB very effective, that makes Katarina a very good harasser, and a very good farmer
- more dmg against buildings ( I know 40% of the AP you have makes damage on buildings, but with full AD it will be more )
- easyer to stack AD than to stack AP =
the best item for AP is blasting wand : + 40 AP
the best item for AD is BF sword : + 50 AD
considering you have boots, a doran's shield ( start item ), a Haunted guise, you have 3 free slot ( +1 with selling the shield ).
with 4 slots you can stack 4 blasting wands ( 3420 gold ) => 160 AP
with 4 slots you can stack 4 BF sword ( 7200 gold ) => 200 AD

you can have the whole game stacking BF swords ( and it can be upgraded easilly after that )and focusing on AD and only AD ( after the 2 core items, boots and haunted guise ), whereas with AP you have to upgrade the items, giving things others than pure damage ( Rylai is a very good item, but you will simply hit harder with 2 BF swords than with 1 Rilay + 1 blasting wand.
- It gives some physical damages, making the one stacking MR to counter you weaker. Katarina is the the champion to go auto-hit, but you have 1 free hit after Shunpo, and don't say me that you are never auto attacking with Katarina, every champions do some auto attacks.
- The Lotus seems to be more powerfull with stacking AD than with stacking AP

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A well played Kat will often get first blood simply because people can't counter her early game harassment without changing their builds around.
Katarina is not more difficult to counter as most other champions ....
for example, Sion vs Katarina = Sion win :
if you have the Lotus = he have a stun
if you want to harass = he have a shield
if you want to just deal = he have cray lifedrain to hit you when your shunpo is down, or he can hit the creeps to regen his whole life quickly.
This is just an example, doing the first blood is more easy with KAtarina than with some other heros, but she's far away from being the "god early" champion in order to have the FB.

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Items you should never get: Soulstealer or any of those other charged based items. They are snowball items and overly risky, not to mention a waste of money as all they do is offer AP and little else in way.
Playing Katarina is already risky, the amount AP a Meija with something like 8 stacks gives is already very good ( and the best amount of AP/gold ), and 8 stacks is not something so difficult to have with a killer champion as Katarina


PS : Nashor's tooth sucks hard on Katarina, it gives you useless mana regen, useless AS, nearly useless CD reduc, so 55 AP for 3k gold ? :/


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Alyzar

Senior Member

05-20-2010

I find it hilarious how people say the same things over and over again, the vast majority of which I've already counter argued or explained clearly.


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Fruz

Member

05-20-2010

So, use some credible arguments next time =)

But ok i'm gonna answer what you said before, I'll edit my post when it's ready


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If you don't get the killl with Shunpo + BB + Death lotus + exhaust(sometimes) on the squishy, from behind no less there is literally something wrong with you, it's probably because you shunpo'd in from behind your team
good oponent say the miss, comunicate with each other and keep at least one control spell for Kata's ulti, so Shunpo + BB + DL is not and I-win combo.
And being unexpected to jump within the fight is not particulary good for Katarina, its good with every dps/control champion as well.

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If you are lurking on the lines of a fight throwing off the odd BB before scooting back behind your tank, you're doing it wrong. Katarina is an ASSASSIN. You should be lurking in the shadows ready to pounce on a squishy. That's what a shunpo is for. You can literally come out of nowhere with insane amounts of IMMEDIATE damage.
Shunpo a squishy carry with more than 50% life, if they have something to stun/grab/slow/bump you, you did wrong because you are squishy too, and the time you are stun, it's time when you're being hit by the carry, and it can hurt a lot. Katarina must never initiate fight, unless if the target is already half dead and is not a tank, and in the laning phase, to do that you have to harass.

There are target you can harass with your Shunpo in the lanning phase, but with many champions ( most of the champions picked with good players m8 ), if they are reactive, it doesn't work well.

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Uh.. for me it does 200-400 damage. Not entirely sure how that is minuscule, especially when the build relies upon as much burst damage as possible within that tiny period.
you get 20 extra damage each level of BB ...... far far away from your 200-400 damage :/

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The thing about that is that I have things like Zhonya's Ring and I actually killl people quickly so I can shunpo out. I'm not so pitiful that I need a crutch.
you can always kill people quiclky with low-ELO game and bad opponents, but it's not always like that.
And in the lanning phase, it's not like that at all, and defense masteries gives just the best start you can have, in order to have staying power and to get the FB.

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Also, you already pointed out that I'm useless if I don't get a kill with my ultimate, but then you point out that getting cool down reductions is a waste? : l I fail to see the logic.
better to get pure damages to increase the chance of killing someone than wasting gold in CD reduc items like Nashor's tooth imo.


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Alyzar

Senior Member

05-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruz View Post
So, use some credible arguments next time =)

But ok i'm gonna answer what you said before, I'll edit my post when it's ready
Take a look in the mirror.

You're arguments aren't credible in any way. You seem to insist that I think that BB is useless (Which I don't). You also insist that it's easier to stack B.F sword, an item that costs 1850 then it is to stack the wand, an item that costs 860. : /

You then move on to fold your arms and recite some recycled banter in a "This is how it happens!!!" context, assuming that Sion would do this from a result of me doing this (Because obviously you know how I lane against Sion) and not really seeing the point of the hero. Of course a stun breaks her DL, I'm aware of that. I'm also not stupid enough to waste her DL when she is just going to be stunned instantly.

Yes, it's obvious. AD = More powerful DL, but, as I've said in the OP, quite clearly, an AD Kat doesn't have the burst damage required to make USE of that. In a typical fight, I will shunpo in once everyone is distracted and jump the most vulnerable squishy with a shunpo + BB + DL. They die near instantly. Unless someone has robotic reflexes, my DL will count. On the other hand, as an AD kat, you shunpo in, it doesn't do nearly as much damage, your DL goes off, and begins to do it's work, but oh look, you didn't have the high burst damage that shunpo has and you got stunned. Exactly what you were talking about. Now you can give off some meager AD while you wait for your cooldowns to expire whilst AP katarina has already killed two people.


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Fruz

Member

05-20-2010

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You're arguments aren't credible in any way. You seem to insist that I think that BB is useless (Which I don't)
with AP build, one level of BB is good to harass, but leveling it up is not very good, leveling killer isntinct is better imo.

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You also insist that it's easier to stack B.F sword, an item that costs 1850 then it is to stack the wand, an item that costs 860. :
You can have the whole game just focusing AD with stacking BF sword wich is the best way to deal with Kata, with blasting wands you can't ( you don't have enough items slots ), I just said it in my first reply ......

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(Because obviously you know how I lane against Sion)
you just wrote a guide explaining how to play with Katarina .... if you didn't explained how you'd lane with Sion it's your fault and your guide needs to be completed.

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Yes, it's obvious. AD = More powerful DL, but, as I've said in the OP, quite clearly, an AD Kat doesn't have the burst damage required to make USE of that
It has.
what you lost on shunpo, u got it with the 1 hit + BB, and BB hits more than a single target, and after that, if the target is not dead, you still have the autohit to finish her, wich will be more powerfull with AD build.


And if everyone says you're not right with your guid, don't you think that YOU could be the one being wrong in many points ?


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peyo

Senior Member

05-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyzar View Post
Typically, yes. My first ult kills 1-2 people, because I know how to position my hero. I also try to avoid harrassing before a teamfight because Katarina works best when she leaps in unexpectedly. If you don't get the killl with Shunpo + BB + Death lotus + exhaust(sometimes) on the squishy, from behind no less there is literally something wrong with you, it's probably because you shunpo'd in from behind your team, offered no surprise to the enemy, and your Lotus probably didn't hit anyone for more then 1 second or so. The entire idea of the lotus is to position yourself for maximum damage. That is how you pull off the triple kills.
you gotta be playing some uber low ELO where nobody stuns/silcenes/taunts/fears you
If your ulti is stopped, you get no kill with AP, no matter if you jump from behind or not.

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If you are lurking on the lines of a fight throwing off the odd BB before scooting back behind your tank, you're doing it wrong. Katarina is an ASSASSIN. You should be lurking in the shadows ready to pounce on a squishy. That's what a shunpo is for. You can literally come out of nowhere with insane amounts of IMMEDIATE damage.
We have a different understanding of Assassin champion I guess. IMO it's a champ that gets quickly in, gets quickly kill and gets quickly out. You don't need to hide to come unexpected, you have your Shunpo with quite a nice range. I'd not recommend you to jump unexpected into 5 people as you'll be taken down. You can harrass a lot and then go around and just finish them off. That works much better. Love to gank recalling squishes from behind, but they won't recall if you don't harrass them

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Uh.. for me it does 200-400 damage. Not entirely sure how that is minuscule, especially when the build relies upon as much burst damage as possible within that tiny period.
more loling
I'd LOVE to see an AP build dealing 400 dmg with BB :]

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The thing about that is that I have things like Zhonya's Ring and I actually killl people quickly so I can shunpo out. I'm not so pitiful that I need a crutch.
these 5% damage boost is soooo **** much o_O other than that, you get only auto attack buffs from offensive masteries, so it's a double fail

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People getting Mejai even when they are at 1/4 has put a bad taste in my mouth. It's purely preference.
I get SotO everytime, no matter what stats I have. As soon as I get some asists I'll get nice boost for more kills.

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Yes, it's not the best item to get but I like it and if I get it, it's usually when the game is almost over. Also, you already pointed out that I'm useless if I don't get a kill with my ultimate, but then you point out that getting cool down reductions is a waste? : l I fail to see the logic.
cuz there is completely no logic in taking Nashor. You don't do auto attacks, so it's wasted. You don't have mana, so it's wasted. You don't need CDR, so it's wasted. Paying 3k gold for 55AP? I fail to see the logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyzar View Post
I find it hilarious how people say the same things over and over again, the vast majority of which I've already counter argued or explained clearly.
doesn't it mean that you're wrong?