Anticipated Roles in Dominion:

First Riot Post
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FireMageLynn

Senior Member

08-30-2011

I like this. No sure the secondary ones were necessary though, or you should at least should have given them slightly more descriptive name. Invader needs to be a bit more fleshed out too, obviously. Nice work though.


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SoMuchSpaghetti

Senior Member

08-30-2011

I'm gonna play AP talon all game every game k?

What role AP talon do.


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CryptRat

Member

08-30-2011

It should be noted that the utility of trickshots goes waaay up since champions have to be stationary to capture points.


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Demonic Ritual

Senior Member

08-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarxis View Post
I like this. No sure the secondary ones were necessary though, or you should at least should have given them slightly more descriptive name. Invader needs to be a bit more fleshed out too, obviously. Nice work though.
Thanks for the input, i added a bit to the Invader section to clarify it a bit but for the Secondary Defender/Assaulter Sections I think they're actually alright, I guess it sounds like since they're 'Secondary' they're not as important but in fact they are.

ie. You have Kog'maw as your Secondary defender he's not gonna be standing on the capture point like a normal Defender would be, he would die instantly, instead he's going to be a ways back using his ult to stop channeling. And let's say you also have Galio as the Defender. How would you capture this point? If it was just Kog'maw there it would be easy and would require little man power, I'd just send in my Assassin. And if it was just Galio I'd send in an Invasion team. But since both are there I would need more. An Invasion team + an Assassin could work but if the Kog'maw sees the Assassin coming and is able to evade them long enough and is able to get a shot off on the Secondary Invader before they finished channeling help could arrive to ruin that plan. The most effective thing for that situation would probably be an Assassin, an Assaulter and a Secondary Assaulter (the Assaulter would tank and do whatever damage they can while the Secondary Assaulter does what they can to melt the Defender from a distance). That's a lot of people to use on one point and meanwhile the other team has a Pusher capturing another point and a Sweeper "ninja"ing another point.

Can't wait for Dominion should be very fun.

I'll probably change those 2 sections to clarify them a bit more, maybe after I finally get out of bed :P


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Jabufu

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Senior Member

08-31-2011

All of your roles overlap to the point where it's pointless to make that many distinctions. You can easily reduce your list to 4:

Defenders: self-explanatory.

Pushers: self-explanatory.

Ninjas: high-mobility assassin types that ninja points or kill badly positioned players (or other ninjas).

Utility: support, visibility, traps, teamfights. (i.e. Teemo, Shaco, Taric, Soraka)


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Demonic Ritual

Senior Member

08-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabufu View Post
All of your roles overlap to the point where it's pointless to make that many distinctions. You can easily reduce your list to 4:

Defenders: self-explanatory.

Pushers: self-explanatory.

Ninjas: high-mobility assassin types that ninja points or kill badly positioned players (or other ninjas).

Utility: support, visibility, traps, teamfights. (i.e. Teemo, Shaco, Taric, Soraka)
On the surface you can put it into very general terms like that but if you want to get at all serious you need some more specific roles. For example Amumu and Ezreal may both be decentent Defenders but they won't be defending the same way, Ezreal won't last a second if he is faced with a full on attack and it's kinda useless having Amumu sitting in the back waiting to help. Also you're missing the Assaulter role, you can't really just group it with Pusher since a Pusher uses minions to take a capture point and an Assaulter will just rush in and kill the Defender to take it.

You're roles may be a bit more "noob-friendly", but the ones I've came up with target more of a higher level of play. Thank you for your input.


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Jabufu

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Senior Member

09-01-2011

I'm not putting it in "very general terms." I'm putting it into the terms that exist, rather than trying to make some infinitesimal distinctions that don't hold up under any real observation.

Look at your own assertions:

"Amumu and Ezreal may both be decentent Defenders but they won't be defending the same way, Ezreal won't last a second if he is faced with a full on attack." Looks like Ezreal isn't a defender.

"It's kinda useless having Amumu sitting in the back." Are you saying Amumu isn't a defender either?

"A Pusher uses minions to take a capture point and an Assaulter will just rush in and kill the Defender to take it." If your distinction between an "Assaulter" and a "Pusher" is that a "Pusher" needs minions, there is not a separate role. They both attack nodes - it's just that some heroes are better at it than others.

I think you're missing the fundamental point of defining roles. The roles are based on objectives, of which there are few - capturing points, defending points, map control, and roaming/ganks - not champions, of which there are many. You can never play two different heroes identically, but that doesn't mean that because you do something different with Amumu than you do with Ezreal that there's another role to be defined.

You seem more interested in defending your assertions than you are at accepting input. But you might want to get enough posts to your name to be a senior member before you call anyone else a noob.


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Demonic Ritual

Senior Member

09-01-2011

First before I make a serious reply to your post I have to laugh a bit bit at one part of it:

"You seem more interested in defending your assertions than you are at accepting input. But you might want to get enough posts to your name to be a senior member before you call anyone else a noob."

Being a "Senior Member" means absolutely nothing, I'm sorry if you take great pride being one but on these forums there's a lot of nonsense and if you post enough of it they will give you the title of "Senior Member". If you see some of the pros post, some of them are still "Junior Members". Just because people don't spend their lives on the forums doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about.

Okay, so to add to my point, yes Amumu and Ezreal may have the same goal which is to stop the enemy team from taking over your capture point but they go about it different ways and therefore have different roles. The roles I have outlined could be more generalized or more specific but I'm thinking that these roles are decent for when you start a game and are trying to form out a good team. For example you could say that everyone's role is to do what they can to win the game or an assassin might be needed to keep a certain champ under control and that would be their role.

"I think you're missing the fundamental point of defining roles. The roles are based on objectives, of which there are few - capturing points, defending points, map control, and roaming/ganks - not champions, of which there are many. You can never play two different heroes identically, but that doesn't mean that because you do something different with Amumu than you do with Ezreal that there's another role to be defined."

Ezreal's role is assisting Amumu in this case, I hope you haven't been thinking that I've been saying that being a Secondary Defender is Ezreal's only role because he can definitely play different roles, it is just an example of a good choice for that role.

I'm sorry if I didn't word my thread in a way that allowed you to understand it fully.


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Jabufu

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Senior Member

09-01-2011

Sigh.

I'm not going to waste the energy, since you're not going to listen. But for the record, I understand you fully, I'm saying you're wrong. But I guess mid elo is is so lofty that you cannot be questioned.

Contradict away,
Jabufu


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Demonic Ritual

Senior Member

09-02-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabufu View Post
Sigh.

I'm not going to waste the energy, since you're not going to listen. But for the record, I understand you fully, I'm saying you're wrong. But I guess mid elo is is so lofty that you cannot be questioned.

Contradict away,
Jabufu
In fact I am listening, the only problem is that you're not giving me any useful input. All you are saying is that I'm wrong. If you could tell me why it is better to say there are 4 roles instead of 10 that would be great. The only time you have attempted to explain yourself was in this:

"I think you're missing the fundamental point of defining roles. The roles are based on objectives, of which there are few - capturing points, defending points, map control, and roaming/ganks - not champions, of which there are many. You can never play two different heroes identically, but that doesn't mean that because you do something different with Amumu than you do with Ezreal that there's another role to be defined."

Your main/only point is that "roles are based on objectives", of course this is true because without the objective there is no role. However one objective does not equal one role.

For example lets say you and your buddy are in one of those planes with the machine gun turret and your objective is to take out as many enemies as you can. You are an expert pilot and you've never shut a gun in your life while you're buddy is a little afraid of heights and would have never been there in the first place except for the fact that he is the best shooter out there. According to you both your roles is to destroy the enemy while according to me your role is to pilot the plane and your buddy's is to shoot the enemy. I'd like to point out that neither is wrong, I just believe that my classifications are a little more useful. When people know what they're supposed to be doing things go much more smoothly and efficiently with less chance of error.