So...Any plans for Cho?

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RavenGlenn

Senior Member

08-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willydilly View Post
The thing is, a fully stacked Cho is hard as hell to kill. I doubt very much players will find this topic ^ hard to deal with. There are still minions around so getting fully stacked may required several "interrupted" (as opposed to uninterrupted) minutes of farming but I doubt fully stacked Chos will jump into combat and die as frequent as you may think. Playing intelligently is still required and that will keep most of Cho's stacks still on.

His passive on the other hand... that may need some adjusting. Where his passive is now leads to Cho farming to reap benefits. I am not sure if there will be enough minions around for it to be effective. Zileas?
See, here is the problem...you are assuming that a Cho player will just do some farming to get stacks before really getting into the meat of combat...but that's a major problem. From the streams of games they have played, the game will be heavily skewed to the other team's favor before Cho finishes getting all his stacks. And, on top of that...where is he going to hide so as not to be killed? Dominion gameplay is very fast and action packed. He can't go sit in a jungle throughout the game as there are no jungle mobs.

So, he has to be somewhere between one of the points his team controls and a point that the enemy controls in order to feast any minions. That means he will always be open to being killed.

There is no way that Cho should EVER make it to 6 stacks in Dominion. If he does, his team is already rolling the other team so hard that it won't make any difference anyway.


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Pandaris

Senior Member

08-22-2011

He will be using his ult to deny promoted creeps, or at least thats how i see it being used


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WillyDilly

Senior Member

08-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenGlenn View Post
See, here is the problem...you are assuming that a Cho player will just do some farming to get stacks before really getting into the meat of combat...but that's a major problem. From the streams of games they have played, the game will be heavily skewed to the other team's favor before Cho finishes getting all his stacks. And, on top of that...where is he going to hide so as not to be killed? Dominion gameplay is very fast and action packed. He can't go sit in a jungle throughout the game as there are no jungle mobs.

So, he has to be somewhere between one of the points his team controls and a point that the enemy controls in order to feast any minions. That means he will always be open to being killed.

There is no way that Cho should EVER make it to 6 stacks in Dominion. If he does, his team is already rolling the other team so hard that it won't make any difference anyway.
So when there is fighting everybody dies all the time? I assumed some people would live from time to time. This assumption led me to believe that some farming in Dominion was allowed and therefore Cho could gain stacks. I see now that everybody has to die at every capture point every time there is a fight.... Makes perfect sense.



Meanwhile, I also said, he must hide in the jungle so that he doesn't get killed


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NessOnett

Senior Member

08-22-2011

Well at least the Red understood my post, since nobody else seems to.

Even if you die TWICE in a game of dominion, which is extremely low and I don't think has happened in all the dozen-ish games ive seen for any player, you won't get full stacks even once. Let alone be able to hold them at all.

Cho is not "extremely" hard to kill. With 0 stacks he has less base survivability than Pantheon. The only thing that gives him any abnormal survivability normally is that +900 health.

Then factor in that 5v5 fights don't happen(much) on Scar. Which means "tank" Cho will be effectively useless since it's bad in small fights. Which leaves you with AP/hybrid Cho, which would be effective if it weren't for the stack problem. Since at that point you will definitely be dying a lot assuming you're playing right.

To quote Phreak:"If you jump into 4 people and prevent them from capping a point for 2 seconds, and die, you have full rights to say 'worth it' in allchat"


Not sure exactly what could be done to help Cho in this scenario though. Losing 1 stack on death? Getting passive stacks? Giving him 3-6 per feast? But leaving him the way he is now just leaves you with no compelling reason to pick him over other options.


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RavenGlenn

Senior Member

08-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willydilly View Post
So when there is fighting everybody dies all the time? I assumed some people would live from time to time. This assumption led me to believe that some farming in Dominion was allowed and therefore Cho could gain stacks. I see now that everybody has to die at every capture point every time there is a fight.... Makes perfect sense.



Meanwhile, I also said, he must hide in the jungle so that he doesn't get killed
Nice strawman.

No, everyone doesn't have to die in every battle...but if Cho is going to run away from every battle so as not to die and lose half of his stacks, then the other team is picking up some free towers. If he stays long enough to hold the tower as long as he possibly can, someone is likely going to chase to finish him off.

For your argument to work, Cho will need to always be partnered with someone that will not die quickly and can be a strong enough force on the point to keep enemy attention's focused on them so that Cho may run away. Keep in mind that every point has an easy path through the jungle that can allow players to attack from either side of the point. If Cho engages on the point and the other team sees him as any true threat, someone will come through the jungle and fence him in from both sides, making it very difficult for him to run.

And even if he manages to run, that gives the opposing team an advantage.

So, in your argument, Cho can just run away to keep his stacks...meanwhile everyone else in the game will fight to the end to save the point and if they die, they will get their opportunity to buy items and respawn in relatively short order so they may get back into the fight.

This means Cho must play more passively than any other champion in a game-mode that requires action and aggression or at least the willingness to defend your point to the bitter end.

From every stream we've seen, nobody lives through the match with a super high k/d ratio. And as NessOnett(nice name btw) points out: Even if you only die a few times, you still cannot physically achieve max stacks.


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Mr Threepwood

Senior Member

08-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by NessOnett View Post
Why do people think I'm ragging on Cho? I don't think he'll be any less effective in dominion overall.

This thread is specifically questioning the feast problem and nothing else. And it is a problem because he's balanced around having max stacks most of the time outside of extreme early game and if his team is behind.
You are ragging on cho. You specifically said that this will be a bigger problem than Nasus' Q, which is CRIPPLING to Nasus. Nasus essentially IS a farmed Q end game, that, or he just doesn't exist.
As for Cho, if you agree he'll be fine anyway, then no need to balance. He is balanced in SR around being able to keep stacks. He's not balanced for CS AT ALL. So the question is, is the loss of his stacks going to make up for his gains in other areas due to this mode? His excelent 1v1 power with that CC and huge damage on the ulty? Long ranged harass for defending towers? Maybe, maybe not. But if you are saying that he's going to be just as effective overall in dominion AS IS, then there are no problems, why are we bringing it up?


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Swerto

Senior Member

08-22-2011

HotShot GG didn't die once in the last game of the tournament and had full stacks from 6 minutes after he hit level 6 until the end of the game.

Keeping your cho stacks is all about knowing when to project yourself forward and risk death, and when to stay back and keep your lovely stacks.


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MrDragonNoncreep

Senior Member

08-22-2011

6 stacks cho + mid buff = big big alienvoidmonster


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WillyDilly

Senior Member

08-22-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenGlenn View Post
Nice strawman.

No, everyone doesn't have to die in every battle...but if Cho is going to run away from every battle so as not to die and lose half of his stacks, then the other team is picking up some free towers. If he stays long enough to hold the tower as long as he possibly can, someone is likely going to chase to finish him off.

For your argument to work, Cho will need to always be partnered with someone that will not die quickly and can be a strong enough force on the point to keep enemy attention's focused on them so that Cho may run away. Keep in mind that every point has an easy path through the jungle that can allow players to attack from either side of the point. If Cho engages on the point and the other team sees him as any true threat, someone will come through the jungle and fence him in from both sides, making it very difficult for him to run.

And even if he manages to run, that gives the opposing team an advantage.

So, in your argument, Cho can just run away to keep his stacks...meanwhile everyone else in the game will fight to the end to save the point and if they die, they will get their opportunity to buy items and respawn in relatively short order so they may get back into the fight.

This means Cho must play more passively than any other champion in a game-mode that requires action and aggression or at least the willingness to defend your point to the bitter end.

From every stream we've seen, nobody lives through the match with a super high k/d ratio. And as NessOnett(nice name btw) points out: Even if you only die a few times, you still cannot physically achieve max stacks.
Stop saying "In your argument" because you don't understand my argument, or at least you think you understand, but you don't agree which tells me you don't understand enough.

Balance between having 6 stacks and gaining capture points is the whole fun in the game. The last thing anyone wants is to give Cho'gath the ability to run around gaining six stacks and not worry about losing them because they are easily attainable. The best thing is to make Cho'gath players really care about their stacks and balance the importance of Stacks vs. Retreating (if your gonna die and lose the point why not just run). The OP keeps saying nobody understands me, its physically impossible blah blah blah.. But its not. You just can't play like a Baffoon dying for no reason and stuff.

Again balancing means losing stacks to gain capture points and losing capture points to keep stacks. You can't just make it easy to get 6 stacks because that it what you want.

Also, In my first post, I said cho'gath will have to participate in "interrupted farming" meaning he doesn't just sit in a lane farming for 15 minutes but instead goes back to lane to grab some NOMNOM


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RavenGlenn

Senior Member

08-22-2011

No, I understand your argument completely. You want a Cho'gath player to have to retreat from a fight in order to save his stacks, something no other champion will be required to do. The gameplay mode was designed with death in mind. Running is almost always a worse option than sticking it out to defend until backup can arrive. If you die, you have a short timer and the gold won by the other team is negligible due to the rapid gold tick.

If all the other classes had to do the same, you'd have a point. The problem here isn't that his ulti becomes uselss or 'less than optimal'...it is that Cho'gath is entirely designed with his feast in mind. This mode makes it rather difficult to make true use of it.

But, I'm sure you are right. A great Cho'gath player will not die 2 times in a match and will still be an amazing player for his team.../sarcasm