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Sustain Changes

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Rawrwott

Senior Member

08-15-2011

AD Soraka gogogogo?


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OJ191

Senior Member

08-15-2011

Weellll I think the W changes are a bit much, Wish I understand (as it stands, wish has a 2200 base and 6.5 ratio..


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Prince Kassad

Senior Member

08-15-2011

I support these support changes!


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LenfaL

Senior Member

08-15-2011

Yo, you gotta admit that there was a problem with soraka and sona, especially when they were laning with a self healing character (hump *gangplank* cough cough).

And the problem persisted in late game where the healing is so incredibly big that you need to kill the support in order to win a team fight...

The changes proposed by Shurelia would make it balanced.

Next, they need to balance Rammus, Tryndamere, Udyr and Gangplank.


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Best Reimu NA

Senior Member

08-15-2011

Riot doesn't seem to understand that the sustainment problem runs much deeper than Soraka and Sona heals. It's like putting a band-aid over an open chest wound and calling it okay.

The real problem, see, is that there is not enough reward in playing aggressively. Sure, you can nerf Philosopher's Stone, Health pots, and any other ability that heals anything at all, but in the end, it won't do much else other than make Heart of Gold more viable and certain champions less viable.


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Fendral

Senior Member

08-15-2011

Quote:
Shurelia:
Hello Community!

Once again a disclaimer: These changes are not final until they're live, and may be subject to change, please do not use this against me as I would love to continue this exchange of information.

Soraka

* Starcall
** Cooldown reduced to 2.5 from 3
** Base damage reduced to 60/85/110/135/160 from 60/90/120/150/180
** AP ratio increased to .4 from .25
** Mana cost reduced to 35/40/45/50/55 from 40/50/60/70/80
** Shred increased to 8/9/10/11/12 from 8/8/8/8/8
** Maximum stacks reduced to 10 from 20

* Astral Blessing
** AP Ratio reduced to 0.45 from 0.9
** Cooldown increased to 20 from 10
** Base Heal increased to 65/130/195/260/325 from 60/120/180/240/300
** Armor Buff increased to 25/50/75/100/125 from 20/35/50/65/80
** Armor buff duration increased to 5 from 4
** Cast range increased to 750 from 650

* Infuse
** AP ratio increased to .75 from .6
** Cooldown reduced to 10 from 15
** Silence duration compressed to 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 from 1/1.5/2/2.5/3
** No longer grants double mana to soraka on selfcast.


* Wish
** Wish AP ratio reduced to 0.7 from 1.3
** Base heal reduced to 200/300/400 from 200/320/440
** Mana cost reduced to 100/175/250 from 200/275/350

Sona
* Aria of Perseverance
** Base heal reduced to 25/50/75/100/125 from 35/70/105/140/175
** AP Ratio reduced to .25 from .35
** Now grants double her passive aura bonus to her heal target and herself for 3 seconds.
* Fixed a bug where Hymn of Valor and Aria of Perseverance caused her to deal 20% reduced damage
* Reduced the lockout time while casting Sona's songs to make them more responsive.

More coming soon when I get the info. I don't have information on the other healers yet.

If you want to discuss healing changes, join the PVP.net chatroom "SupportDiscussion" , I'll try to hang out in there when I can.


Sorry I missed you in the Chatroom. Here is my personal concerns and opinion.

I like:

*Starcall: The cooldown reduction to allow for a better ‘mana dump’. The mana cost is great for her early game; that 5 will add up very quickly. I like the stack change. 10 is actually attainable compared to the 20. This will make many players feel ‘better.’

Astral Blessing: The AP reduction. You clearly understand that heals become more valuable as the game wears on because of it’s interaction with defensive stats. This really helps that. The Armor buff duration to 5. The Cast range to 750. Please make all other non-ultimate shield spells this range. Janna’s is 800, Morgana’s is 600. I don’t know Lux’s, I suppose hers should be around 850 due to it’s Boomerang complexity.

Infuse: I like the silence compression and the double mana to soraka. She will now have to be more considerate about her mana spending and itemization. The ratio increase is interesting. I don’t think it’s abuse-able, really. Some nice icing.

I dislike:

Starcall: The base damage reduction being aimed at her late game instead of her early game. As the game goes on Soraka necessarily stays further away from her opponents, well out of Starcall range. The reduction in mana and cooldown make this ability more spam-worthy in the beginning, I’m afraid of it’s damage early on compared to what it will do late game. A tanky soraka doesn’t need to build AP to make this spell good. The damage potential early game is very high, please reconsider the damage shift and make it deal less initial damage and similar late game damage as its current form. Please make the animation hit more sensibly. The delay of the damage is really, really, weird.

The shred change concerns me. Comparing her shred to other such abilities, Amumu, Morgana, Ryze, and Fiddle, they are extremely outclassed. It has a wide AOE, hits stealth, and can be used more safely than the other Champ’s abilities, except for Morgana’s. Combining the cooldown reduction and the increased shred compounds its strength. I believe this is a little too high, personally, especially if used early game. I know it’s weird to see ‘Battle Soraka’ currently, but she will crush some lane combinations relentlessly. When paired with a high-cast AP champ like Ryze I think her synergy may go through the roof.

Astral Blessing: I find it strange that you reduced the ratio by half and doubled the CDR while barely increasing the base heal. The armor buff is possibly too considerable, but it’s hard to get an idea of how this will play out without being able to see it in action. Rank 5 heal is similar to the armor granted by Rammus’ DBC. I really don’t like that. It encroaches on his territory and makes DBC seem worse, but that’s a different issue. I know these numbers aren’t final. I’d consider lowering the armor bonus by ~15 and increasing the rank 5 base heal by about 50 or so.

Infuse: I’m worried about giving certain characters even more mana while in lane. Taking a leaf from Dota’s Keeper of the Light, Ezalor’s, book, when paired with certain Dota Heroes he made them insanely strong because their limiting factor in the beginning of the game was their mana pool. Giving Alistar, Caitlyn, Ezreal, Gangplank, Jax, or a slew of other champions more mana may make them too damaging without any kind of counter (as you’re aiming to destroy sustain.) Once again, this needs to be seen in action to verify my fears.

Sona

I have nothing bad to say about this. Sounds Gravy. Might not be enough of a nerf, really. Just be careful with her damage scaling of hymn of Valor!


Thanks for your time.


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Lord Tolkien

Senior Member

08-15-2011

Quote:
Nerdmaster Paul:
300 range nuke on one of the squishiest characters in the game? No problem we buff that and nerf everything else that made her useful. The only reason to use Soraka with these changes would be for the global heal. Even then Janna will out sustain Soraka in lane after these updates and will be better for team fights. These don't make any sense not even a bit. Very poor job Shurelia not going to lie.

But Janna has no sustain on her whatsoever. she has a shield. Shields can mitigate damage, but cannot sustain. Soraka still has a heal (reduced in effectiveness by half, but a heal is still sustain). And Soraka now puts out 50% more mana (though not self-castable: still, the change means only 75% of the mana she could gain if she only self-casted, and 150% for both Soraka and her lanemate if she casts on them).


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HoneyBadgerKFC

Recruiter

08-15-2011

So, Soraka is about as good as Eve is now... thanks Shurelia you **** tard.


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YuriKitten

Senior Member

08-15-2011

Quote:
Randuin:
You can still do all of that without giant heals.


And if you or anyone at Riot legitimately thinks that Sona has "giant heals," then you're f'ing ******ed.

The proclaimed point of the support remake is to nerf sustain, remove monotony, and make heals a "clutch" ability. Reducing the POTENCY of heals does not make them remotely a clutch ability, not when you've got people doing 1000+ damage with a single hit, in some cases an AUTOATTACK which can happen up to 2.5 times per second, and that's if only one champion is attacking them.

If you want the heals to be clutch, they -do- have to be giant heals. Take Soraka's Astral Blessing, for example. You're cutting its AP ratio in half. That's a massive nerf to its potency, pushing it more into a "spam it to gradually heal people over time" ability, yet you're also doubling its cooldown so it can't be spammed, making it practically useless. If you merely increased the cd to 20 seconds, or hell, even 30 seconds, but left the high potency on it, then it'd be clutch. More like ulting someone as Kayle.

Now, considering the other changes to her spells and the desire to maintain the no-CS Support aspect of the meta, I can understand wanting the AP ratio on healing abilities low, but that means you need to drastically increase the base healing of the ability or make it scale off of something other than AP, such as % of the target's max health.

Also, as a note on Soraka's Astral Blessing, screw the buff to the armor it gives. Make it give MR as well as Armor, so it's actually always giving a benefit that's useful.


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Captain Kicku

Senior Member

08-15-2011

Jus' go ahead and add Soraka to the Sivir tier.