Sustain Changes

First Riot Post
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Pilige

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Senior Member

08-15-2011

I'm glad Soraka is getting a nerf to her healing and mana sustain. It's ridiculous to lane against a Soraka and not being able to do any discernible damage. While I realize the point of a healer is to heal, it is massively annoying and slows the game down too much.


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INEEDMOREDPS

Member

08-15-2011

Why does Riot always implement big changes? Why couldn't they just nerf the base values and the ratios a tiny bit like around 10%. Just small minor tweaks would help the game a lot. Do I really have to pray every night that the champions that I main don't get nerfed to oblivion and become non-viable in the next patch?!


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Lord Tolkien

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Senior Member

08-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necks View Post
How does nerfing Soraka's base heal and AP ratios make her healing "more clutch"? It's like calling Lux's shield a "clutch" shield. Has anyone ever used Lux's shield? It breaks from one single auto attack from an enemy!

When that clutch moment arises, Soraka will sprinkle a puny heal on one target and they will still die. The cooldown nerf was appropriate. That's the right direction to go. The base heal and AP ratio nerfs are overkill.

Seriously. Nerf Soraka's cooldown to oblivion. Make astral blessing a 30 second cooldown skill. But keep the base heal numbers and AP ratios.
Do I have to keep repeating myself?

Her W is there for the armor buff. 125 armor=125% increase in EHP as a percent of BHP (or 75% against Last Whisper). With a 2000 HP champion, you boost their EHP by 1500/2500 HP.


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Xinthros

Senior Member

08-15-2011

I understand sustain is a problem, but I would have liked to see more added to these characters/abilities rather than straight nerfs to the characters. Give them another incentive to heal, or some residual effect of the heal like the armor buff soraka's has.
If you're trying to make them more clutch saves, then add more to help save people. AP ratio nerfs are probably not needed with the doubling of the cooldown, and AP ratio nerfs are probably not needed as much with the base heal going down as well. Maybe longer passive benefits of heals would help. Assuming this is done to more than these two.
But my main point is that if you're trying to fix sustain and are nerfing the healing portion of characters, then add another benefit to heal of some kind. I think you'll find that without the heals as they are now, people will not only not enjoy playing these characters less, they will have much less of a place on teams.


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Lord Tolkien

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Senior Member

08-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilige View Post
I'm glad Soraka is getting a nerf to her healing and mana sustain. It's ridiculous to lane against a Soraka and not being able to do any discernible damage. While I realize the point of a healer is to heal, it is massively annoying and slows the game down too much.
Her mana sustain is actually getting a buff (well, self-cast not so much, but if she casts it on her lane-mate...).


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TheLostSkeleton

Senior Member

08-15-2011

I'll throw my hat into this ring. It seems like you want her to be a solo laner or just all around stronger solo champion.

The damage off a starfall with a standard Mage rune page with 15 starting AP and Doran's ring gives her a decent amount of damage early on.
For Starfall the damage goes like this, assuming the MR reduction is applied after the first hit.
60 + 64 = 124 damage at level one with out pull creep aggro and auto attacks in just 4.55 seconds or if you land a third attack for 69 damage (including MR reduction now) totaling for 193 damage under 7 seconds, 6.825 with 9% CRD from 9/0/21 Masteries and no runes at level one. That is not bad at all.

If you were aggressive and went for Infuse at level two you could easily kill a champion, Starfall, Starfall, Infuse. 60 + 64 + 70 = 194 and if you land a final Starfall and an Ignite, which at level two is 100 true damage you would finish with 363 damage in total. The worst thing is she COULD get spell vamp with this but I don't know how to build the new Soraka.

I only did these calculations off facing a champion with 30 starting MR, my runes having 15 starting AP and 10 MPen and a Doran's Ring.

I could see her as a huge pushing force with a Starfall buff.
If anything feel free to shake the game up, I don't mind just running my Gold per 10 Quints and placing my fate of bot lane in an AD carry while just buying wards. I find it boring but it can be effective.

Janna can solo lane very well and with some AP and maxing her Q she can farm entire waves easily and push towers hard. I know Taric COULD sustain himself in lane but would not be the best in a solo. I won't go into Sona Solo lane, not something I've tried or seen.

What I'm trying to say is with these changes I can see the math to back up Soraka getting pushed out of a solely supportive role and pushed more toward a disruptive silencing menace that shreds MR where ever she goes as more of an AP champ but I can't back up a 18.2 second cooldown heal.

Please read this and tell me if I'm some what correct about your plans, I've never had a red post respond to me before.


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Sonatria

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Senior Member

08-15-2011

I feel like the changes to the healing make sense to wanting the laning pahse, and the game in general to have less sustain. However, I don't feel like the additional utility quite makes up for the loss of power with the reduction of healing, thus Soraka in particular feels like she'll be stuck in a place of 4th tier UPness if these are how the changes end up being. Perhaps astral blessing could have a 6 second duration--->that IMO would make it perfect.

As for Infuse, reducing the CD by 5 seconds is great, but because the silence and mana are reduced significantly as well I feel the skill is being severely nerfed. Perhaps increase it's dmg to compensate?

Also, starcall sounds really cool from the changes...but it seems like the reduction of the silence leaves her utility feeling weakened...even though the heal is receiving a nice armor and magic resist buff....

As for Sona, the problem with reducing the heal further and trying to replace it with a buff that applies only to sona and the champion healed is that sona doesn't choose who she targets...so the extra bonus could end up being completely useless. Perhaps it could grant the double aura to all units in an aoe equal to or perhaps less than her heal range for 3 seconds after cast....then the reduced healing wouldn't feel like so much of a nerf...as right now Sona is top tier because of her abilities doing just enough//having enough utility and cc...


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Scampie

Member

08-15-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurelia View Post

Soraka
Overall I feel moderately ok with the Soraka changes, but perhaps she's a little overnerfed in her late game healing and the Starcall buff I feel isn't in the right direction. She's being encouraged to buy AP to do damage, which I feel iffy about because I feel like there are already too many strong AOE damaging characters, and she'll just be adding to the problem. These are my feelings about the individual changes to each ability:

Quote:
* Starcall
** Cooldown reduced to 2.5 from 3
** Base damage reduced to 60/85/110/135/160 from 60/90/120/150/180
** AP ratio increased to .4 from .25
** Mana cost reduced to 35/40/45/50/55 from 40/50/60/70/80
** Shred increased to 8/9/10/11/12 from 8/8/8/8/8
** Maximum stacks reduced to 10 from 20
Still no reason to put any points in this early, since it's problem is not that it didn't do enough damage or debuff people enough or even that it cost too much or had too high a cooldown.... the only problem was that it pushed the lane, and as with many untargeted abilities, isn't great for ensuring you're getting every last hit. Level 18 teamfights this will be a strong damaging ability no doubt, but I already feel there is too much AOE spamming in fights and I feel this will just make it feel even worse of a feeling to fight against a Soraka when she's not only healing her team, but is basically a timelimit for a duration of a fight before your team just simply dies to the MR debuff and constant damage... and she doesn't even need to target it.

I would suggest remaking the ability to become a targeted, spammable, debuff (smartcast would be a good choice here). The idea being that Soraka can use it offensively to constantly damage and lower targeted enemies, rather than as the untargeted ability it is now. Being able to zone enemies offensively with the threat of constant MR reduction, without worrying that you are pushing the lane, would actually make this a more worthy early game choice, though at the expense of her late game AOE teamfight damage.


Quote:
* Astral Blessing
** AP Ratio reduced to 0.45 from 0.9
** Cooldown increased to 20 from 10
** Base Heal increased to 65/130/195/260/325 from 60/120/180/240/300
** Armor Buff increased to 25/50/75/100/125 from 20/35/50/65/80
** Armor buff duration increased to 5 from 4
** Cast range increased to 750 from 650
Overall this seems like a fair change, though I worry about the scaling and the cooldown might be a bit high, since I fear the problem will be her late game healing with half the healing per second and half the AP ratio, and only 25 HP base healing increased. My only feeling here is that the AP ratio might be too low for her to remain relevant all game. The armor buff is great though.

Quote:
* Infuse
** AP ratio increased to .75 from .6
** Cooldown reduced to 10 from 15
** Silence duration compressed to 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 from 1/1.5/2/2.5/3
** No longer grants double mana to soraka on selfcast.
This seems fair with the higher cooldown on her heal.

Quote:
* Wish
** Wish AP ratio reduced to 0.7 from 1.3
** Base heal reduced to 200/300/400 from 200/320/440
** Mana cost reduced to 100/175/250 from 200/275/350
I think the AP ratio nerf is a little strong here, I think it would be better to increase some of the early cooldown on this, maybe even lowering the base heal a little more, and not lowering the mana cost. My worry with this change as is is that she'll be using it more often in lane thanks to the lower cost, but in later game even with spending gold on AP, it'll simply be weaker in exchange for some more mana which she doesn't have issues with anyway.

Quote:
Sona
* Aria of Perseverance
** Base heal reduced to 25/50/75/100/125 from 35/70/105/140/175
** AP Ratio reduced to .25 from .35
** Now grants double her passive aura bonus to her heal target and herself for 3 seconds.
* Fixed a bug where Hymn of Valor and Aria of Perseverance caused her to deal 20% reduced damage
* Reduced the lockout time while casting Sona's songs to make them more responsive.
This is reasonable. I didn't personally feel Sona was super strong heal-wise, she was better for being a good generalist support with a decent poke, and I don't think this will destroy her overall, but maybe the AP ratio could be a bit overnerfed.


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Gøggles

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Senior Member

08-15-2011

Screw this ****!

I'm waiting for Dota2.


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Crusalis

Senior Member

08-15-2011

It guts Soraka, not that I care. Worst champion in the game to play as or play against. Completely deserves it.

But you don't fix Soraka by tweaking numbers. She needs to have her ult or her normal heal just removed and replaced by something else. Having two heals, as well as the staple mana restore, means a very, very powerful champion.

Infuse doesn't need it to not work twice on Soraka, just have the thing cast mana to cast. Not a lot, but enough to make it not spammable enough.