Magic Thornmail

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Diamondragan

Senior Member

08-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by LancerXXX View Post
You're not happy with QSS? Banshee's Veil? Guardian Angel? Is there a problem? And yeah, that would stop casters from doing almost ANYTHING unless it was 1% reflect which is... meh. And it would make Abbysal Scepter a must-get (MR+AP).
I'm not happy with any of those items, no. Hell no. You want to know why?

I'll build 200 MR at the cost of who the **** knows how much gold and how long it took me to farm that gold, and then Annie or Veigar goes and buys a Void Staff.

The 2295 gold of a caster just ruined the effort of ~5000 gold of a tank. So much for tanking.

Annie, on the other hand, has her own 50 AR/50 MR shield for 20 seconds, and as a tank I'm not real huge on buying offensive items just to be able to hit what's supposed to be a squishy AP carry.

So no, I don't like MR items. I don't like how casters can walk all over entire teams, catered to by the items available to players, masteries, and Riot themselves.

If there WAS a Magic Thornmail, it'd be the only damage casters ever took. Yeah, let's just not add that to the game because in theory if Veigar stacks Archangel Staffs it's not going to end well.

I'm tired of reading bull**** comments against more MR items, especially this one. It doesn't matter how much MR I build or what champion I play, the casters always have the advantage.

And here are the forums to remind me how many people are close-minded and play casters themselves.

****ing listen to someone, for once. What a bunch of children.

Resonating Robe

Negatron Cloak + Null-Magic Mantle + 860 Gold = 2000 Gold
  • +80 MR
  • UNIQUE Passive: Upon taking magic spell damage, reflects 30% back to the attacker as physical damage. This item casts an invisible aura effect on itself and nearby allied champions, dividing the effect of this item and those that allies possess in reflecting damage from magical area of effect spells by the number of allied Resonating Robe wearers.

Layman's terms: Damage reflected by area of effect abilities cannot ever exceed 30% of their single-target damage utility.

Deal 500 damage to 5 targets, each which happen to be wearing the Resonating Robe, and only 166 damage is returned.

Likewise, deal 500 damage to a single target, which is wearing the Resonating Robe, and still suffer 166 reflected damage.

And yet still, deal 500 damage with an area of effect spell, but only hit one target, and still suffer 166 reflected damage.

Because the area effect of magical spells differ, for the most part I would have to request that the range of the invisible self-limiting aura be a short one. There's no reason to self-nerf yourself, quite honestly, because Garen happens to be in the brush on the other side of the river with the same item. Alright?

I reduced the recipe cost by lowering bonus MR gained through it. Like it would have mattered...

And now for what you're all thinking about.

Mimicked Shadow Coat

Chain Vest + Chain Vest + 600 Gold = 2000 Gold
  • +90 Armor
  • UNIQUE Passive: Upon taking physical spell damage, reflects 30% back to the attacker as magic damage. This item casts an invisible aura effect on itself and nearby allied champions, dividing the effect of this item and those that allies possess in reflecting damage from physical area of effect spells by the number of allied Mimicked Shadow Coat wearers.

I would be more than glad if Riot ever cared enough to read this forum and find my idea(s)...

How do I come up with these item names? Well, "resonating" means "one that follows, following, echo" and "mimicked shadow" is just a wordy way of picturing yourself moving a weapon around, casting a shadow, and that shadow striking back at you.

To be honest, if Riot somehow made particle effects for all of this, in which abilities that were reflected actually bounce off of the wearer and physical spells that were reflected come back to them or are "activated" by the wearer as a dark purple, shadowy animation of the spell...

Picture, Garen vs Renekton. Renekton uses Cull the Meek, and Garen's model all of the sudden displays the animation of Cull the Meek as a dark purple opaque version of Renekton's weapon spinning around and dealing damage only to Renekton. Likewise, when Garen uses Judgement, a dark purple opaque version of Garen's spinning sword surrounds Renekton upon taking damage, dealing damage back to only Garen.

There are really a lot of things that can be done, but animations are needless when set alongside the requested mechanical effects.

TL;DR

You can't cry OP about Magic Thornmail when there are more than enough ways to make an item that fits the role and it beneficial to the wearers while not too powerful and harmful to the attackers while also not too powerful.

My mechanics as stated in the items ARE easily accomplished by Riot, since they already used invisible buffs in the past. All that matters now is the range for the self-limiting aura.

P.S.: Base armor is higher than base MR.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

08-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamondragan View Post
My mechanics as stated in the items ARE easily accomplished by Riot, since they already used invisible buffs in the past. All that matters now is the range for the self-limiting aura.
Well, I like the ideas. Normally when I see something posted by you I actually agree completely, but I have to disagree with this one point on the premise that I don't believe you have done any programming/coding like this. Now, I could be wrong and I could be right, but I'm going to say that it's not easy to code something so that if you hit 5 targets at once with a magic AoE, and they were wearing an item that countered that attack, only 1 (effectively) would counter.

And the Mimicking Shadow Coat sounds cool except for the fact that there is no champion who can auto attack 2 people at once. The closest is Sivir but it only counts the 1st hit as an on-hit effect, and...oh wait, "physical spell damage"? I'm pretty sure that's way too in depth, making an item for physical and magic spell damage separate? The game classifies Spell damage and Attack damage for purposes of thornmail, vamp, etc. (this is why Gunblade works on physical skills) and then classifies physical and magic for resistances. The Resonating Robe would be all you'd need to reflect skills whether physical or magic damage. That alone adds a whole layer of added complexity to 2 item suggestions beyond what you think it would be.

And P.S. Armor is also used to block the lowest CD skill in the game: auto attacks.

Again, I'd normally agree with you, but there's another problem. Casters aren't encouraged to build straight defense items. The items that they get that come close to straight defense are Banshee's Veil and maybe Frozen Heart. Otherwise, the stats for their items are either straight AP/Mana/CD or that combined with a bit of defense. And aside from RoA, no AP/HP items in existence.


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Diamondragan

Senior Member

08-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exdeadman View Post
Well, I like the ideas. Normally when I see something posted by you I actually agree completely, but I have to disagree with this one point on the premise that I don't believe you have done any programming/coding like this.
I appreciate the compliment. You might enjoy this thread in GD before it's downvote locked.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1105587

Who knows? It might already be too late by the time you read this. Really, who knows...

EDIT: Oh, I've been told that cross-forum linking is unacceptable. Then again, what harm am I really doing, here.

It's just a link, all the same.


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Vuther

Senior Member

08-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamondragan View Post
I'll build 200 MR at the cost of who the **** knows how much gold and how long it took me to farm that gold, and then Annie or Veigar goes and buys a Void Staff.

The 2295 gold of a caster just ruined the effort of ~5000 gold of a tank. So much for tanking.

Annie, on the other hand, has her own 50 AR/50 MR shield for 20 seconds, and as a tank I'm not real huge on buying offensive items just to be able to hit what's supposed to be a squishy AP carry.

So no, I don't like MR items. I don't like how casters can walk all over entire teams, catered to by the items available to players, masteries, and Riot themselves.

If there WAS a Magic Thornmail, it'd be the only damage casters ever took. Yeah, let's just not add that to the game because in theory if Veigar stacks Archangel Staffs it's not going to end well.

...

And here are the forums to remind me how many people are close-minded and play casters themselves.

****ing listen to someone, for once. What a bunch of children.

...

TL;DR

...

P.S.: Base armor is higher than base MR.
It invalidates 40% of it. You still have 60%. It makes the casters less useless against a tank with lots of magic resistance, rather than turning the tank into a target a squishy as themselves. The gold is still worthwhile. If you feel Void Staff is too powerful, why not just nerf Void Staff rather than creating a new problem with a new item that has to be strictly examined, playtested and balanced?

What does a single caster case have to do to prove the balance over casters and other champions? If you think that shield of hers is excessive, adding more items would be extra effort to solve her problem that is just hers (not all casters have defensive steroids). Just nerf Annie instead.

So, casters frequently walk over you and your entire team?...I have to doubt that, I play tanks fairly frequently myself and I've never felt that casters are a huge threat to me. Maybe the casters I go against don't think of buying a Void Staff, or something, but seeing a caster completely carrying a team due to just their own damage outside of them getting totally fed doesn't seem to happen for me. They have cooldowns, after all.

What? Casters never take damage? Does your team never initiate and focus them or something? With casters' damage making them prime target to get kill sprees, I can't see why you rarely see casters die. As well, casters' gameplay consisting of "unload, then run" makes them all the more important to target first. Failing to allows them to still makes the most of their value by casting abilities on your team while they are ignored. The fact remains - a magic thornmail would discourage casters to ever cast on the target ever again. If the damage returned was peanuts, the item would be useless. If the damage returned is at least worthwhile, the caster doesn't want to ever hit the target. It'd be a Banshee's Veil on drugs.

Calling me a child doesn't encourage me to agree with you. It makes me think about the technical incorrectness of your statement since I'm 19, and re-examine my own immaturity around everything else outside of internet discussions, but it certainly doesn't make me want to agree with you.

Of course base armour is higher than base magic resistance, because most sources of physical damage can just attack again and again to kill the target. If base magic resistance was raised to more equal to armour, mages would be the ones at right to say the game mechanics are biased against them, because they'd land their abilities and do much less damage while the carries just right-clicks. Plus, most champions actually have less armour than magic resistance...at low levels. No one says this makes casters underpowered at low levels - they tend to be among the best at low levels. It's just the value that the game is balanced around. This specific general pattern is not significant to the overall balance of the game at all.


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Douggie

Senior Member

08-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamondragan View Post
The 2295 gold of a caster just ruined the effort of ~5000 gold of a tank. So much for tanking.
You just got nuked by the caster and your carries didn't?

Congrats you should have just auto-won the teamfight.

Oh BTW the whole reason base armor is higher than base MR is because AD has the potential to come at over 2000 points of damage every second. No caster can match this without resorting to counting the total done to multiple targets by an AoE spell.

Also there are fewer magic pen/shred items than armor pen/shred items.


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Diamondragan

Senior Member

08-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douggie View Post
You just got nuked by the caster and your carries didn't?

Congrats you should have just auto-won the teamfight.

Oh BTW the whole reason base armor is higher than base MR is because AD has the potential to come at over 2000 points of damage every second. No caster can match this without resorting to counting the total done to multiple targets by an AoE spell.

Also there are fewer magic pen/shred items than armor pen/shred items.
That argument bugs me. It bugs me a lot. You want to know why? No carry does that damage.

Not even Tryndamere. Yes, not even Tryndamere. Not Yi, not Xin, not Ashe, NO ONE.

Two THOUSAND damage per second? No, no one does that or ever will alone since Tryndamere's nerf, and no one ever will unless they change Tryndamere or implement another champion with Critical Damage.

Two thousand damage per second...boy, I'd love to see your viable math for that. Yeah, no.

And for your information...Veigar and Annie can both instantaneously burst for 2000+ damage. It's called smart casting (Annie) and infinite AP capacity (Veigar).

What kind of community is this?


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Eddiot

Senior Member

08-16-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamondragan View Post
That argument bugs me. It bugs me a lot. You want to know why? No carry does that damage.

Not even Tryndamere. Yes, not even Tryndamere. Not Yi, not Xin, not Ashe, NO ONE.

Two THOUSAND damage per second? No, no one does that or ever will alone since Tryndamere's nerf, and no one ever will unless they change Tryndamere or implement another champion with Critical Damage.

Two thousand damage per second...boy, I'd love to see your viable math for that. Yeah, no.

And for your information...Veigar and Annie can both instantaneously burst for 2000+ damage. It's called smart casting (Annie) and infinite AP capacity (Veigar).

What kind of community is this?
Yep veigar can nuke you for 2000 base(before resists) every minutes, dang thats alot of damage, and annie? about the same.

Resonating Robe: This won't happpen because of caster and items, caster because casters outside of vlad and swain don't have strong sustain, which every single AD carry with have. And because of items like sunfire/thornmail/SotD/madred's/deathfire, Cho/mundo/sion buy this item and madred's is useless because your going to kill yourself faster then you will them. Then you have hybirds and AD's with magic damage abilities: Nasus's Ult(%max hp like madred's), Renek, Ashe's Arrow, Panthe's ult, Kayle's Q and E, all of Jax's abilities.

This item goes WELL beyond what you what to counter with it, it will not happen beside you can't balance under current game mechanics. Think Locket, has to be good for those who its intended for but then OP on some champs who it isn't.

Quit trying to get a bad item idea in the game.

Edit:
On the Trynd thing, a large portion of the time with BC you'll still be at oh about 30 armor(cause crit damage > ArPen usually) which is 30% reduction so those 1100 hits are actually about 1500, so before resists he is doing at least 1500 damage a second usually closer to 3000 because their usually around 2.00 AS. So math wise?

1500(so Trynd) or 800 average(Ashe) or 900 average(Cait)
Most will hit about 1.9 AS on full build(some higher ofc) so 190%(1 attack + 9/10 of an attack) of the base per second Damage, this equals: 2850 DPS(Trynd), 1520(Ashe) and 1710(Cait). This is assuming Ashe and Cait get at least BV and Trynd doesn't get any defense.

Yi can get as high as Trynd and higher due to his extra attack(means he goes a bit past the 2.5 AS Cap), though i'll have to look at that later


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gpa4

Senior Member

08-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamondragan View Post
Two THOUSAND damage per second? No, no one does that or ever will alone since Tryndamere's nerf, and no one ever will unless they change Tryndamere or implement another champion with Critical Damage.

Two thousand damage per second...boy, I'd love to see your viable math for that. Yeah, no.
Master YI can't reach 2K damage per second? That is not true when the game go past the 45 minute mark.
With 2.5 AS (Highlander+Ghostblad+PD+Zerker), you can slash 3 times in a second (4 due to his passive). so with 72% crit chance (Ghostblade+IE+PD+Masteries) and 260% crit damage (Masteries+IE), Master Yi needs 310 AD to have 2K DPS, which is given by 111 (Base damage) + 70 (Wuju Style) + 133 (Items) = 314 AD > 310 AD.

Don't trust me? There are dozens of fed Master Yi videos in you-tube, all showing you how FEARSOME a fed AD Carries can be.


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Vuther

Senior Member

08-17-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamondragan View Post
Two THOUSAND damage per second? No, no one does that or ever will alone since Tryndamere's nerf, and no one ever will unless they change Tryndamere or implement another champion with Critical Damage.
Kinda unlikely, yeah. The fact remains though, that late-game physical damage carries will do much more damage than casters quickly in some seconds after. If the target(s) don't instantly die to the caster's abilities, physical damage carries will end up doing more damage if you give the carry a few seconds alone with the target and that same time with a caster. They have different niches.


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Ztune

Senior Member

08-17-2011

There's a simple reason why there will be no magic thornmail:

Thornmail reflects damage received from auto attacks only. Auto attackers usually do most of their damage this way. It's sustainable damage that doesn't expire or go on cooldown. There needs to be an item that can counter this at least a little bit.

Casters rely on spell damage, which is usually bursty in nature and is generally on cooldown and/or requires a resource such as energy or mana, keeping you from spamming it until somebody is dead.