Elementz 5v5 Tier List (Draft Mode)

First Riot Post
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aLewares

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Senior Member

09-14-2010

where did evelynn go O_O


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SwordOrShield

Senior Member

09-14-2010

I've been thinking on this for a while, and, I'd like to make it an official suggestion.


I think Cho'Gath should be moved out of the 'Hard to place on a team' tier, and into High Tier 4, or Low Tier 3.

Now, yes, I have a reason for this. First of all: I'm not thinking of Cho'Gath as a tank here. I'm thinking of him as a caster. The deal is, I think Tank Cho'Gath definitely belongs in the 'Hard to place' tier, because he fits the requirement exactly; erratic performance. He's a tank who automatically snowballs whether you want to or not, which is very, very questionable. In fact it's borderline insane.

AP Cho'Gath, however, plays a very different role. I'm going to look at his abilities in a different way here. Q and W have 1:1 and 0.7:1 AP Ratios, Feast has a 0.5 AP Ratio but is massive true damage nuke, and as a burst caster he does excellently. His Q is hard to hit with on it's own, sometimes bordering on outright impossible against a competent team - so use it as a follow-up nuke, to punish someone who let Taric or Sion stun them, who got feared by Fiddlesticks, or even just took a strong enough slow.

You can also tear apart enemy carries with an instant burst of over 800 True Damage, or finish off that Morde with way too much armor/MR.

And with the Feast stacks, you are not a tank - but you're a bit tougher then most mages. In short, you're not ever going to be soaking hits up, but you won't fall over from a stiff breeze like Ryze. You will have consistent, reliable performance as a tough caster.

Now, this is why I suggest he gets into High Tier 4/Low Tier 3. I think he can outperform Fiddlesticks and Ryze, who lack the natural toughness he does from the few Feast stacks you'll pick up - but he's definitely nowhere even near Vladimir's caliber. He doesn't have the escapes of Kennen. He doesn't have the undodgable slow of Anivia. Rupture's positioning effect is nothing compared to Veigar's Event Horizon.

In short, there are other casters that are better - but I feel that Cho'Gath can at least be considered a reliable but very situational caster and be graded that way, instead of as an unreliable tank.


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AIM7Sparrow

Senior Member

09-14-2010

I think you might be jumping the gun on Tristana after your WCG experience. She's good but her mid game is just so god awful. She has the burst of a caster early game and is about the hardest carry end game bar Kog but her middle game is just so weak imo I think she should be moved down to the lower end of tier 2 at least.


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vynzs

Senior Member

09-14-2010

I'll add that Cho'gath synergies great with Morde's ult.
The ennemy carry dies instantly and you own the rest of the team after.


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True Fire Rune

Senior Member

09-14-2010

I think metagame should not be factored into the tier list that much, and it should just be based of a champions natural ability. Kog may be useful vs beefy teams, but vs non-beefy teams, Ashe, Tristana and co. do the job better, which should regulate Kog somewhere in the mid-tier, rather than top of the top cause of current trends.


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Tewnam

Senior Member

09-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Karthus's area denial is more powerful than malzahar's and he's not doing any better.
Karthus doesn't have a silence and an anti-carry death warrant ability to go along with it though. He functions as a magic damage ranged carry and doesn't really compare to mages like Annie, Veigar, Ryze, Malzahar, etc.


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Sacrolicious

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Senior Member

09-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elementz View Post
Maybe.. I just don't see him being picked in competitive play though.. If you want a DPS jungler you take Olaf or WW which are much better imo. Olaf perma slows multipul players, can't be CCed, + best anti tank skill in the game. WW provides Mundo's Q but less spamable, W amazing buff to any champion on your team that auto attacks which, chases amazingly and now has suppression which is a massive change that can make X champion die as they can't cleanse or do anything while in it.

Mundo is just auto attack DPS + a slow.. It's not that he's bad at all as I said. He's great for solo queue and crushing people there. Competitively though.. He doesn't add more to the team other then self buffs to himself and that really isn't enough for a high end 5v5 team composition.
I believe somebody mentioned before that mundo is very olaf like and i pretty much agree, however, i think mundo shines in places where olaf is lacking, with his movespeed he easily zips around the map for multiple ganks and easy ward placement, he never has to go back to base due to the low cooldown on his ult. His cleaver being as spammable as it is, is also an amazing poke for todays meta game. One cleaver can easily take 1/4 of an enemies life in some cases, not to mention the slow isnt something you just shrug off. Burning agony + merc treads almost gives mundo a constant Olaf ult.

Since the patch his survivablity has gone up significantly and I believe that he will be seen a whole lot more, he fits too well in the meta game not to.


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Hedgepig

Senior Member

09-14-2010

I might support moving Malz up one tier. I think Malz is still low tier on the casters, but I do think hes viable as a 5th pick. If your team has aoe snares ('Mumu, Veigar, Morg, etc) and you are vs a certain few types of comps, Malz can be pretty nice, and certainly more trouble for the other team than a standard burst caster.

The two situations I find myself liking malz in are vs clutch support heroes and vs beefy dps teams. Clutch support heroes are ones like Janna, Kayle, Zilean, Soraka - heroes who have a great ability that is best used mid fight to react to damage or targeting and sometimes relied upon. In these cases an aoe silence on a long range can often shut out the support. You can then suppress the person further if need be, keeping them from using their ability. Few champs can shut down another for 5s, uncleansable.
Second, beefy dps teams tend to underestimate the damage his pool does. Alone its pretty worthless w/out your ult, but in a team with frequent snares or stuns, you can do a ton with it. Malz is one of the few casters that can take most tanks/burlies from 100-0 in one salvo. Since these people rely on being able to push people around with their HP pool and outlasting the initial burst, you can force them to alter the gameplan and often have good targets for your pool.

In short, I dont think he provides a lot of utility to a team alone, but with or vs the right people he can be quite strong in his disruption of team fights. You have good zone control due to Q and pool (both of which are bad in laning), and threat of your ult is almost as powerful as using it. Now that his range is higher and ult better, has a larger stronger zone and more safety.


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Forcepowa

Senior Member

09-14-2010

Elementz has it right on Malzahar. As a person who plays Malzahar exclusively, I know what he is capable of and his shortcomings.

He will almost always be hard to place on a team because of the nature of his abilities.

His ultimate will always be lack luster because its a channeling single target self stunning move. It has no use in a team fight. Maybe if they every came out with a 1v1 map then Malzahar's ultimate would be god like. Like some of you propose. The fact of the matter is. Even with suppression it is still pretty easily countered.

The reason his ultimate is so easily countered is because there is a delay before the stun takes effect allowing instant interrupt moves priority. Things like every other stun and silence in the game. Due to the casting nature of his ultimate, delayed interrupts also destroy his ultimate.

Only effective way to use his ultimate is in a gank or 1v1 scenario or when his team has locked down all the other opponents. So he must be on a team with lots of cc or his effectiveness decreases.

His Null zone is practically useless without help from other abilities. Another reason he is team dependent. Malzahar cant create a good situation in which he can kill an enemy champion safely like Annie, Veigar, fiddle or any other caster can. His damaging ability is limited to one champion and that's only when his ultimate is up.

His Call of the Void is still easy as ever to avoid. It is one of the if not the hardest skill in the game to land and get full effect of because of how it works.

This being said, Malzahar is probally the hardest champion to do well with aganist competent opponents because you make one mistake your dead. There is no sanguine's pool, Stun ring, aoe stun, slow, snare or anything of the sort. If you engage an enemy prepare to either kill them or die. This is why you dont engage Olaf or tyrandamere alone because they can prolong the fight which means you are dead. You don't engage any melee champion alone unless you are sure you can kill them because you cant get away from them.

The changes Riot has done over the course of his release has not fixed any of his fundamental problems. Sure an opponent could cleanse your ultimate, but after the cleanse nerf it really wasn't that big of a deal.

The problem is Malzahar lacks utility and reliable damage. These things are crucial for a caster especially in this current state of the game in which caster are dropping in tier ever since the flat before percent nerf. Malzahar has some crappy base value and comparably high mana cost. On top of his lack of an escape or kiting ability that all casters make use of in order to survive the tanky dps.

Even now with all the flash QQ. If it were removed Malzahar would become even worse. I think once you actually played him you really get a sense of how easy it is to counter him. Malzahar has alot of work to be done before he is viable in competitive play and frankly don't think Riot will spend the time to do it. As new champions will come out and Malzahar will be an after thought. Maybe he will be revisited one day maybe not but future looks pretty bleak for him.

As of now his is more of a pure damage champion, that takes advantage of enemies inability to react by some form of CC. With that said I still enjoy him. I enjoy the challenge he brings in order to win games. I enjoy having to work harder then everyone else in order to achieve the same result. I enjoy having to know where my enemies are at all times before i even attempt to ultimate. It is what keeps me playing LoL and keeps playing Malzahar that much more interesting.

TLDR: Malzahar is hard to place on a team and probably always will unless he receives fundamental changes.


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gun fu panda

Senior Member

09-14-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elementz View Post
Maybe.. I just don't see him being picked in competitive play though.. If you want a DPS jungler you take Olaf or WW which are much better imo. Olaf perma slows multipul players, can't be CCed, + best anti tank skill in the game. WW provides Mundo's Q but less spamable, W amazing buff to any champion on your team that auto attacks which, chases amazingly and now has suppression which is a massive change that can make X champion die as they can't cleanse or do anything while in it.

Mundo is just auto attack DPS + a slow.. It's not that he's bad at all as I said. He's great for solo queue and crushing people there. Competitively though.. He doesn't add more to the team other then self buffs to himself and that really isn't enough for a high end 5v5 team composition.
I definitely see where you're coming from. WW and Olaf do outclass Mundo to some degree. However, Mundo offers a lot of the things Olaf does. He permaslows and does significant damage via Q, has a longer duration CC resistance than Olaf (via W), offers very strong burst capability via E/Q, and is much harder to kite than Olaf. If Olaf gets kited/exhausted, he dies. He relies on landing autoattacks to survive. Mundo doesn't have this limitation. Due to the ult/spirit visage changes, ignite doesn't shut him down anymore. Mundo is better in a kiting/chasing scenario than either of these choices due to the nature of his cleaver vs Olaf's undertow and the versatility of his ultimate.

Again, I agree that Olaf/WW do offer a lot, which is why they're tier 2. However, your definition of Tier 3 and Tier 4 seem to be inclusive enough to move Mundo out of "hard to place", because he really isn't. He has his place, it's just not in the current popular metas.