A better way to classify champion's power

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Fraid

Member

09-09-2009

I like the idea behind this, even if I'm not sure it plays out in a way where it's so easy to define a charachter. btw You're missing Sivir.


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Natural20

Member

09-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregan View Post
your "nuke" tiers are so wrong its sad. both annie and anivia are incredible nukers, its what they do. and fiddle has weak skills, but just enough synergy to keep him above bottom tier. janna has 1 nuke so i'd put her in the bottom.

and where is karthus? depending on how fed he gets, he can be a carry, and he can easily be great magic dps.

see? this is what im talking about, some arbitrary person comes about and locks people into places, then arguing ensues, and the then the sheer fact of POTENTIAL item building and game flow throw the entire chart out the ****ing window. the whole practice is stupid.
Thanks for the advice. If you have any more suggestions, let me know.


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Natural20

Member

09-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damendar View Post
I don't think anyone has mentioned the main point yet.

In tournaments, or any high level play, it's going to be a team selection similar to DotA, yes?

The minute active counterpicks are entered into a closed system like that, it permanently borks the tier ratings. And the math just ripples through and grows exponentially. I would imagine it's possible to pick hard counters for far over 50% of the possible choices in the game if you're judging it at the level of individual selection.

Lets say you pick what is generally considered to be a top tier character. If I've got next pick, and I pick a hard counter to you, does it matter that the hard counter might be a lower tier? Somewhat, but minimally, at best. What if it's a hard counter so powerful that not only is his guy > yours, but it FORCES someone on your team to pick a hard counter for him? Yikes. Gets gamey fast.

Most games are going to revolve around team synergy; pick a gimmick or two to build a team around, or an overarching strategy to build a specific team around, or a combination of a few key abilities to build a team around and you may throw in a few hard counters, depending on how things go down and how many of your slots are devoted to the above decisions.

Tier = pointless, here. If you're going to 'compare' heroes against one another, the only honest way to do so is (surprise) the way the game is designed. By fighting specific 5v5 team matchups against one another.

Once you're at that point, player skill becomes the differentiator, along with the theorycraft, item choices, and all the other things. But tiers are pretty weetodded for this, no matter how you look at it, and of practically zero use.

Cheers.

Damendar
I didn't think of it like that. I guess this type of ranking won't really work. I was just looking for a better way to identify balance issues with hereos.

I guess I will just let this thread fade into oblivion.


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Bregan

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Senior Member

09-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krow View Post
im avid smash player, and the best pichu player in the world coulnt beat a decent marth or fox. So, just pointing out its not all skill.
yes, it is. also pichu is a terrible example because he was a stupid design (hurting self), but even so a true master of timing and distance calculation can do amazingly well with even pichu.


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LameLikeMike

Adjudicator

09-09-2009

yeah the reason tiers don't already exists and should not exists is that it is the wrong way to go about ranking characters in a game like this. The only effective way of actually "ranking" characters in a moba would be to compile a list of qualities, then rank them in those qualities, and take there overall score to determine a list of good to bad.

unfortunately, this list would have to be very extensive to be even near accurate, and most of the qualities would be difficult to judge.

some of the qualities that would be need to be judged

Early Game

  1. Base Damage output
  2. Spell Damage output
  3. Base Health
  4. Base Mana
  5. Mana Cost of spells
Mid Game
  1. Lane Farming ability(characters with AoE would score High)
  2. Jungle Farming
  3. Mid Game Damage output
  4. Ganking Ability
Late Game
  1. Health
  2. Damage
  3. Pushing Ability
Overall
  1. Item Dependence
  2. "Baby Sitting" needed or able to provide
  3. Movement speed


Anyway after taking all this and more into account also factor in Character combos, summoner spells, runes, and the fact that you have hundreds of item build choices.

that is why the game is still not balanced and also why it has come to a simple black and white, OP/UP discussion. unfortunately unless some customization is taken away(godforbid) there will never be an accurate ranking system, the closest we can come to it is a list of OP/UP and/or competitively viably or not competitively viable.


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Krow

Member

09-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregan View Post
yes, it is. also pichu is a terrible example because he was a stupid design (hurting self), but even so a true master of timing and distance calculation can do amazingly well with even pichu.
The state champion lives next to me, and trust me, the best of all bottom teir players in the world couldnt beat his top teirs. lol.


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Lollerman

Senior Member

09-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krow View Post
The state champion lives next to me, and trust me, the best of all bottom teir players in the world couldnt beat his top teirs. lol.
Tell him to turn items on, and play random maps.

Edit: or her.


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LameLikeMike

Adjudicator

09-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lollerman View Post
Tell him to turn items on, and play random maps.

Edit: or her.

you are a sinner . . .


I lold a little.


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Atmosfear

Senior Member

09-09-2009

Tiers are pointless when you factor in the fact that your power increases based on level and how fed you are. Add in items and you absolutely cannot determine what hero beats what.


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goji

Member

09-10-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregan View Post
this game is item based anyway, so its all about how you play the hero.
not to mention that a champion could change tier depending on opposing champions as well ...


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