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My Feelings about Dominion as a Mode

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BowTie

Senior Member

08-06-2011

AxeC is just addicted to ganking and hero killing; i.e. KDA.


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RocketSlug

Senior Member

08-06-2011

Quote:
The Jinxxx:
First-and-foremost: I do not believe "casuals" are bad. Or that competitive players should be catered to anymore than casuals, I just didn't feel like it has been "even" on the scale. That was just my honest opinion, and the point I was trying to convey in comparing the released features for not so hardcore players versus the HSGG's of the genre. If I did so poorly, I apologize immensely.

With that said, everything you've said in this thread has COMPLETELY changed my mind. You are 100% right, we as players don't realize that the people who are mostly responsible for replays are also the ones trying to scale a used-to-be 2 person company into a 15 million player game. BUT - that is because, until now, no one has said so.

Are you kidding? Knowing that, I'm so freaking excited because that is an area I've personally seen TONS of improvement and a great job in (again, I've played since open Beta, I remember the servers back then hahaha). But really, I had no idea the teams were so connected. And I'm willing to bet 99% of the community who is so desperate to see these things come out doesn't either.

Maybe I've missed it, but I have never seen a Riot member so forthright and honest about the behind the scenes of these features. And never seen it explained in such good detail. Perhaps I'm blind and have just missed it, but I'm fairly active on the forums and feel like there is still a ton of frustration within the community. Not all just because these things aren't out - but because Riot has, since Magma Chamber, taken a more "behind the curtain" approach to its features. Which is great for new stuff that hasn't been announced, but I feel like for the older stuff it'd be nice to keep us updated on whats going on in a more transparent way.

In any case, I really appreciate your time. I'll definitely be doing my best to relay some of what you said here. I think its all incredibly well said and some great things that just haven't been explained by Riot thus far. Thanks so much, Morello!


Agreed with you, there. I'm not as old as beta (approaching 2 years, old enough to have UFO Corki), but I remember last summer where we'd be lucky if the server was up for 48 hours straight and every time it went down the website did, too (prompting "Stop putting your game and website on the same server, Riot!" threads).

This is why I think the DevTracker should be so much more prominent. It's pretty much all I read on the forums anymore, and it keeps me up to date with what Riot's thinking.


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Agg

Senior Member

08-06-2011

Quote:
The Jinxxx:
First-and-foremost: I do not believe "casuals" are bad.

/snip

Thanks so much, Morello!


I use the CLG redtracker found at clgaming.net to stay on top of pretty much every english-language redpost.

I find it really lets me understand where riot's coming from.


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Mango Fandango

Master Recruiter

08-06-2011

Quote:
Agg:
I use the CLG redtracker found at clgaming.net to stay on top of pretty much every english-language redpost.

I find it really lets me understand where riot's coming from.


I do as well. Its really the only way to browse the forums with all of the spam/flaming/general debauchery, lol.

Quote:
Morello:
<3

It's hard to get the word out because we do so in discussions like this, but we have a lot of forum posters and a lot of people don't see this kind of discussion. Plus, unfortunately, I don't have the time to do this as regularly as I'd like


Be cool to have like an announcement every few months or so with a quick little snippet of what teams working on projects we know about are up to. Couldn't possibly take long - and as long as you avoid the expected release date issue I can't see the harm too badly. Sort of like what Shurelia does so often with her support updates, just in a more prominent role since these features are sort of "bigger" projects.

Shes generally pretty loved.. Maybe you can get in on this so people forget the whole NMST and start calling you Update Master Awesome Sauce.

I'll get on spreading the new nick for ya ASAP.


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Dynark

Member

08-07-2011

Well, it is easy to realise.
We have kinda an anouncement, some press reviews and many red posts.

Anouncement:
New Mode, New Map(that looks great)
Press:
Some informations that could be outdated...
Circle, 5 Points, Items in the game, that are exclusive...
Red Posts:
"We love it you will too"

I would recomment a commented showgame of the Beta streamed, not as news, just posted as anouncement perhaps. We would get a better feeling for it and the VoD would be out there.
Everyone would know, that it is WiP.
We will have that at ~18. but ... that is kinda unneccessarily "far" in the future...
And considering that you rioters "play it all the time"


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IS160e0d9b9b351fe75e2ad

Senior Member

08-07-2011

Quote:
The Jinxxx:
Be cool to have like an announcement every few months or so with a quick little snippet of what teams working on projects we know about are up to. Couldn't possibly take long - and as long as you avoid the expected release date issue I can't see the harm too badly. Sort of like what Shurelia does so often with her support updates, just in a more prominent role since these features are sort of "bigger" projects.


They purposely don't, they have stated it a few times before. Afraid of people stealing their ideas and such.


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Haarenfang

Senior Member

08-07-2011

Quote:
AxeC:
They purposely don't, they have stated it a few times before. Afraid of people stealing their ideas and such.


That aside, they also don't announce stuff, because of things like the rage over no magma chamber. If they announce something, the community decides that it HAS to be released. They are good about only giving release dates, when they are 100% sure about them. The companies that give you a date and keep pushing release back by 2 weeks with a new date 5 times get on my nerves more than the people who say it'll be here soon, but the release date is not set, because they understand the possibility of delays. Unfortunately the community ignores this, in fact they never said magma chamber was even near done, all they released was concept art, and a lot of people figured that meant it would automatically come out soon, based on concept art....


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Xyltin

Senior Member

08-07-2011

My POV to Dominon vs Magma Chamber:

MC would have been a bigger map then SR but with the same goal. Longer laning phases less ganks on that map so you have less team action and more farming. The game will be decided while laning most of the time and the teamfights will probably be more one sided in most games.
=> A longer game (probably around 35-40 min) that will be decided in the long 20 min laning phase.
It will have the same balancing problems as TT, cause the champs are balanced for SR. To change that you have to change a lot of items and probably change jungling completely.

People like to think about MC in a positive way, but it wouldn't have been as good as SR. In the end 85% play SR, 5% TT and 10% MC.


Then take Dominon. It is a new game mode. And that is the right way to make new modes: Make a whole new map for them.
The classic MOBA has the SR map. Other mods need other maps (very often).
You can balance the mode through the map and the new items.
We also start with lvl 3 and more gold, so we will get a lot more action a lot faster.

With these changes we will have great late game experience, but faster. No long farming. Farming is good, but currently it is too important.

MC would never have a real competitive scene. It would have been more like TT.
Dominion is new and has a chance to be a good mode and played competitive by a player base that wants to have no laning phase.


Dominion will improve the game by a way MC would have never been possible to do it.


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DarkCresent

Senior Member

08-07-2011

Quote:
The Jinxxx:
I do as well. Its really the only way to browse the forums with all of the spam/flaming/general debauchery, lol.



Be cool to have like an announcement every few months or so with a quick little snippet of what teams working on projects we know about are up to. Couldn't possibly take long - and as long as you avoid the expected release date issue I can't see the harm too badly. Sort of like what Shurelia does so often with her support updates, just in a more prominent role since these features are sort of "bigger" projects.

Shes generally pretty loved.. Maybe you can get in on this so people forget the whole NMST and start calling you Update Master Awesome Sauce.

I'll get on spreading the new nick for ya ASAP.


i agree with Jinxxx, i get that they don't want people to steal their ideas and that's all well and fine, but things they have announced should be put up on a separate forum all together called new features or something; where only reds can start a thread but people can post ; and put there the progress of things in a way where its not 2 revealing e.g.
Magma Chamber current progress 40 % - Current stage: Programming base code/ fixing vision range / modelling scenery etc - Current Delay due to : bug/imbalance/etc - Project Lead: hohums - Who also does UI/ Maintains Servers etc

but keeps us informed , also things like what was explained here by Morello should be stickied (i made this word up SHH you word Nazi's ) so that everyone understands the delays etc (people are generally more chillaxed (yes also made up SHH) when they understand) ; another thing u could do is a closed beta for things like magma chamber so you get early feedback + this way you can let the community decide when features are ready to release (yes a incomplete replay like league replay's LOL Recorder isn't A grade stuff but i would STILL PREFER that we got an incomplete replay like LOL Recorder that's fixed over time then a crappy situation where u have no replay capability at all and I'm sure a lot of other people out there feel the same)


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vermontsucks

Senior Member

08-07-2011

Quote:
Morello:
The goal with Dominion is the same as League of Legends as a whole; more accessible than other MOBA games, but also retaining competitive depth.

We do know it won't be for everyone, nothing we make ever will be (and if it tries to be, it will usually fail). We talked a lot about why we wanted to do this instead of the original Magma Chamber;

In a game like this, we felt that making another 5v5 classic map had less advantages and more disadvantages. For example, it's quite likely one becomes the "noob map" if the game mode is the same, and it's also more likely that a new map, even if superior, can't dislodge the inertia created by the 7+ years of the classic map we've all utilized up to this point. Additionally, how the map is chosen, what is used in Ranked and tournaments further confounded the issue.

For focusing on our classic competitive community, we're way likely to get bigger wins for you guys by adding more features (Spectator and Replays being big ones here), continuing to improve on Seasons, and making sure we improve our ESports scene.

One thing to be clear about Dominion; it's not "casual mode." It's easier to get into probably since death is less punishing, but we've taken measures to include things that add depth and mastery. Mistakes on the team level are still as punishing as anything, though one feeder is less likely to tank the whole experience (something I'd consider a plus, generally).


The only issue I have with this is you guys missed an opportunity to fix 2 glaring issues with SR that I believe impact the ability to play aggressively in the lane as well as stifle creativity in strategy.

I am personally believe that SR is to small and allows movement from lane to lane to easily. I am not against ganking in any way, I just feel that it should have a higher cost if you are going to do it. I think a larger 5v5 would make the game more aggressive over all.

You also missed you chance to fix jungling which to me is another issue that contributes to passive laning as well as stifling creative gameplay. I do not believe it is cause it is OP in the sense of red buff. I think it is OP cause it leaves no options and punishes creative team builds due to the fact that you are at an instant disadvantage if you choose to run anything other then 1-1-2-jungler. The issue I have is that there is no cost to having a jungler, they level just as fast as a solo and keep in gold with your lanes as well. All this time this while giving map control and lane intimidation. These things should have a cost that makes you have to choose if it is worth having a jungler or would it be wiser to try something else like a trilane/roamer setup. Trying to make these changes on SR would result in mass QQ from the normal GD forumite. Where as if you did this in a new map they would have a choice.

I am one of the people the plays this genre for the competition and challenge. Same reason I played sports growing up, and still play rec leagues. So maybe I am biased against this cause I don't see a point to it. I mean there is only one mode of baseball, as well as one field.........

Quote:
Morello:
<3

It's hard to get the word out because we do so in discussions like this, but we have a lot of forum posters and a lot of people don't see this kind of discussion. Plus, unfortunately, I don't have the time to do this as regularly as I'd like


Quote:
KAHN111111111111:
General communication with community is atrocious. Yes you interact with us fairly often, you just haven't got the tools in place for meaningful information to be given out. I love the new bar at the top of the forums, that is a step in the right direction. You guys need to let the players know what is happening. I mean a prime example was people found out that Leona was not coming over the weekend from Pendragon's stream. This is just plain bad. Make dev tracker more visible, I don't know how many times I have linked it and people have said they didn't even know it existed. Utilize in game messaging, email, make it so you can message on the forums and use that. You all just have to find a more efficient way to get your message out to the player base. Cause as we all know almost no one reads the stickies, and the forums move too fast for regular posts.


Also your communication on features is really not in a good place. The forums just move too fast for any of the meaningful information you give to stay accessible for long. You don't need to give ETA's but just some type of information on the progress of the things you guys have said you are working on would go a long way towards helping. I mean take magma chamber as an example: you announce it, then we hear nothing for a long period of time, then it comes out that it is not coming out till project shiny is completed ( which makes sense), then at E3 we are hearing that Magma chamber was either cancelled or something. An uproar ensues on the forums that could have been prevented by a simple Dev blog, or something similar. Tamat said in a post that we would get more info on shiny in 2 months, that was like 3-4 months ago. This is why a large portion of your community doesn't trust you anymore. I understand that you all do not have the time to answer the same questions over and over, so make a dev blog or something that makes the information easily accessible to everyone.

Same thing for champ changes and Riots feelings on those champs, I mean did we really need multiple posts every day about twitch and Pantheon? No this would have been solved with either a repository of posts about champs, or a live team blog. This would also give you all a place to give updates like: Morello saying that Panth is going to get buffed next patch, that twitch will not get buffed till the stealth remake is completed/


I nice quote for you about communication between devs and customers.....Too bad the guy is quitting.