for annie which is better flat ap quints or magic pen quints

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xMURKY

Senior Member

07-31-2011

For annie which is better flat ap quints or magic pen quints?
Also which is better for blues flat magic pen (.57 maigc pen) or ability power per lvl (+3.06 lvl18)
Annie has two .7 ratios and one .75 ratio
basically magic pen vs. ability power,
Im tryna figure out which setup will provide the most damage ouput


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TheQueefelTower

Senior Member

07-31-2011

For early game, MP marks are usually enough to get the job done, especially alongside flat AP quints.

For late game, more magic pen with your quints is stronger.


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xMURKY

Senior Member

07-31-2011

so basically ap beats out magic pen early and magic pen beats out ap late?


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Orbz

Senior Member

07-31-2011

For blue on annie, the absolute standard is CDR. No extremly slight extra damage you will eek out of your combo will be nothing compared to having 30% + cdr which the blue's help you hit.

Next for quints, ar pen is the way to go. You should be focusing your combo on the enemy burst/carry/support. They will typically have around 70ish resist. The tank and bruiser will have way more, but they aren't your main concern.

If you take ap quints you will have 15 more ability power. Multiply by .3 + 15 = 19ish. If we take 19 ap and combine it with the scaling on all 4 of her skills + tibbers burn damage = about 45(ish) damage. After your deathcap and all your combo's you will get about 45 damage before resits. Considering you will have **** penetration, we're looking at around 25 damage on top of the WHOLE combo. Yes that is complete ****, I agree.

The only answer for any type of burst mage is apen ruins. Apen reds and Apen quints (unless you like utility like ms,hp,regen,etc...)

AP flat is only good, imo, on supports. I don't see any other reason why you would even consider ap ruins...


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Orbz

Senior Member

07-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by fAnNie BanDiT View Post
For early game, MP marks are usually enough to get the job done, especially alongside flat AP quints.

For late game, more magic pen with your quints is stronger.
lol wrong, don't just talk bro. Taking apen ruins will give you close to true damage after you get your sorc boots. It will add a lot more damage than a measly 25 after your combo.


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xMURKY

Senior Member

07-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orbz View Post
For blue on annie, the absolute standard is CDR. No extremly slight extra damage you will eek out of your combo will be nothing compared to having 30% + cdr which the blue's help you hit.

Next for quints, ar pen is the way to go. You should be focusing your combo on the enemy burst/carry/support. They will typically have around 70ish resist. The tank and bruiser will have way more, but they aren't your main concern.

If you take ap quints you will have 15 more ability power. Multiply by .3 + 15 = 19ish. If we take 19 ap and combine it with the scaling on all 4 of her skills + tibbers burn damage = about 45(ish) damage. After your deathcap and all your combo's you will get about 45 damage before resits. Considering you will have **** penetration, we're looking at around 25 damage on top of the WHOLE combo. Yes that is complete ****, I agree.

The only answer for any type of burst mage is apen ruins. Apen reds and Apen quints (unless you like utility like ms,hp,regen,etc...)

AP flat is only good, imo, on supports. I don't see any other reason why you would even consider ap ruins...
what if Im including void staff and sorc shoes in my build wouldnt ap be better then since i already have optimal magic pen, or even then magic pen should stil be preffered

Also my main tragets are usually squishys yes but most of the time squishys and carrys dont really focus on magic res until they finish there damage core damage builds which usually leaves them with their base magic res of maybe less then 40 > wouldnt ap runes be better for this also?


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Orbz

Senior Member

07-31-2011

You should be thinking how you will be playing your early game. Annie is one of the few early game MONSTERS than can scale into late game. It seems like you are just trying to get to level 18 as fast as possible with the most ideal super damage setup possible. That is the wrong way to play this game and especially a champ like her.

1st of all, a void staff is ALWAYS a situational buy and should never be included in your core build. If you are unsure how the mechanics work, this is a good time. Flat Apen is always subtracted off of the resists before % Apen. Meaning if you have boots and your enemy carry has 65 mr it will work like this:

65-20=45 --> 45 x .4 = 28 MR

So you're telling me void staff is cost effective for only -18 MR, which will be the case in most situations (I said most, not all, I do sometimes pick up a voidstaff on my annie). Absolutely not, you will be getting much more if you rush a deathcap or pick up an ROA instead of the void. Void looks like a great item, but it kind of sucks.

If you really want to lower that MR even more, go pick up a haunted guise. It will actually lower the MR more than a voidstaff AND it gives you AP + HP for cheaper! Haunted guise is a super powerful, cheap, and often unnoticed item that will even work late game.


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doo0ooooooom

Senior Member

07-31-2011

math time!

assumptions 1:

1) you're casting rank 5 disintegrate.
2) your opponent has 50 magic resist.
3) you have sorc shoes and 100 ap before runes.
4) you have the 15% magic pen mastery.


so without quints, you're doing (245 + .7*100)/(1+(50-20)*.85/100) damage... which comes out to 250.996 damage

with ap quints, you're doing (245 + .7*114.85)/(1+(50-20)*.85/100) damage... which comes out to 259.279 damage

with mpen quints, you're doing (245 + .7*100)/(1+(50-20-5.67)*.85/100) damage, which comes out to 261.02 damage

assumptions 2:

1) you're casting rank 1 disintegrate
2) your opponent has 30 magic resist
3) you have zero ap before runes
4) you have the 15% mpen mastery

without runes, you're doing 85/(1 + 30*.85/100) damage, which comes out to 67.729 damage

with ap quints, you're doing (85 + .7*14.85)/(1+30*.85/100) damage, which comes out to
76.012 damage

with mpen quints, you're doing 85/(1+(30-5.67)*.85/100, which comes out to 70.434 damage

assumptions 3:
1) you're casting rank 5 disintegrate.
2) your opponent has 100 magic resist.
3) you have sorc shoes and 500 ap before runes.
4) you have the 15% magic pen mastery and a void staff for 40% more magic penetration.

with no runes, you're doing (245+500*.7)/(1+(100-20)*.85*.6/100) damage, which comes out to 422.585 damage.

with ap quints, you're doing (245+514.85*.7)/(1+(100-20)*.85*.6/100) damage, which comes out to 429.968 damage

with mpen quints, you're doing (245+500*.7)/(1+(100-20-5.87)*.85*.6/100), which comes out to 431.765 damage

...

you can disagree with my math assumptions, there could be factors pushing it in one direction or the other (for example, you're probably using mpen marks, but at the same time, your opponents might be using magic resist glyphs or masteries. differences should be minor)

Note that magic pen is relatively better for the bear as it does higher base damage with the same ap ratio, but the difference isn't that great. Mpen will also have a larger advantage late game if you never take void staff. (or a worse advantage mid-game if you rush void staff, but who rushes void staff?)

TL;DR: AP quints are better at level 1. mpen quints are better from level 9+. But there's not a huge difference.

i'd probably go with the ap quints myself, with a better early game you tend to snowball better, ap quints are better for last hitting, etc, and doing 2 damage less on disintigrate mid and late game is not going to kill you.


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xMURKY

Senior Member

07-31-2011

^^ thanks a lot man that really helped me a lot!


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A Foreigner

Member

07-31-2011

If you already have the Magic Pen runes (you probably should, plenty champions get to use them) you probably shouldn't use the IP on the AP runes.


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