@ RIOT DEV TEAM (champion rework team) - An idea for Tryndamere's Bloodlust ability

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Bluebehir

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Senior Member

07-28-2011

My biggest problem with the new Trynd, is that he is not fun anymore. People think that we only found it fun when we pub stomped, but I had fun PLAYING him, not just winning with him. There was something about his design, the high risk / high reward that was so invigorating. There were meaningful decisions to make that I took for granted.

Now, he is no fun. I blame Bloodlust. It used to be awesome, and now it's lame. (No offense intended.)

I understand that Riot have so many issues they are trying to tackle behind the scenes. I probably only know about half of them, I guess. Here's some I can think of.
1. Tryn is not viable at high ELO, which is the elite game.
2. Tryn is 1v5 at low ELO, which is where most of the players are at.
3. Tryn has (had) so much damage end game, after 45 minutes, even if he fed the enemy team. This is counter productive.
4. Healing abilities destroy the agressive nature of the game. They want to remove passive laning.
5. Tryn needs to farm to become good, hence passive farming, passive laning is right up his alley.

My guess is that this is why they grant fury on any auto-hit. It means you can "afford" to hit, not just last-hit.
However, the new bloodlust (designed this way to keep the 'essence' of Tryn - that less health is more damage output) contradicts the champion design and ruins the synergy. Even though it feels they were TRYING to keep it.

I have given this much thought. I want to keep the champ fun, but allow for a balanced champion. I want to keep his design essence in tact, but make him partially viable. I would love constructive feedback, and I would love to hear Riot's thoughts about it.
Please recognise that some of your Tryndamere lovers recognise the painful situation that Tryndamere causes for you, and that we're (for the most part) sensible people who want what's best for the game. I'm not looking to become OP, I just want my champ to be fun again.

My proposal.
Bloodlust (Q)
Cooldown (is it 13 seconds?) keep it that.
Passive. At lower health, you deal more damage. Keep it the same.
For every crit, or kill, reduce cooldown by 0.5 seconds.
Active. Convert fury into Life Steal on a duration timer. The more fury consumed, the more life steal.
As the levels of bloodlust increase, the damage per health increases, and the life steal per fury increases. (Small increments!)

What this does:
Gives back meaningful decisions. You either keep the fury (and the passive) for high crit / high damage, or you lose the high crit for in-combat sustainability (which also lowers damage output). It keeps the champion aggressive in lane, in jungle, or in PvP. It removes some of the "I rage, I escape, I heal, I return again". (some, not all.)

How it synergises:
I'm in a fight. I'm down to about 1/3 my health, but I haven't secured a kill yet.
I press Q. I now deal less damage per second, but I hope that my sustainability will hold out long enough.
Unfortunately, someone else arrived to help him, and I'm gonna die.
RAGE!!!!!! (5 seconds of "I can't die yet")
I still have some life steal remaining, and now I have some crit chance too!! I will likely get that kill but as soon as I do, I need to escape or I will die!

It isn't perfect, perhaps.
You still have the part where Tryn rages, escapes on low health, finds a jungle camp, life steals back to half health and returns to laning. But this is not without risk, and seems a fair reward. You are predictable. You are susceptible to gank. You can even be killed by neutral monsters.

Balance issues:
If the cooldown isn't long enough, we'll always have extra life steal available. This isn't what I want.
If the coodown is too short, it won't be available when we need it. This isn't what I want. The cooldown reduction (if small enough) could address this. The longer we're in combat, the more we can use it.

If the lifesteal value, when matched with damage output, is too high, we leech more health than opponents can deal back at us. This means we'll NEVER leave combat and it perpetuates the problem. This isn't what I want.
If the lifesteal value is too low, it isn't worth using. If it isn't worth using we have the same problem as right now. This isn't what I want.
I am ok with the idea that at level 1 lifesteal %age is high, and REDUCES with other levels.
To counter this, there needs to be a significant passive ability increase per level to make us take it off level 1, or a diminishing returns on the value as your champion level increases.
I am happy with an idea of a complicated formula for this %, such as:
life steal % = Fury consumed * [19 - champ level] * 0.05 + 0.5

Is this feasible? Is this realistically achievable?
If Riot has a problem with implementing a change such as this, why? What issues are you trying to address that we are blindly oblivious to? Let us help you please.


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makkii

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Senior Member

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebehir View Post
My biggest problem with the new Trynd, is that he is not fun anymore. People think that we only found it fun when we pub stomped, but I had fun PLAYING him, not just winning with him. There was something about his design, the high risk / high reward that was so invigorating. There were meaningful decisions to make that I took for granted.

Now, he is no fun. I blame Bloodlust. It used to be awesome, and now it's lame. (No offense intended.)

I understand that Riot have so many issues they are trying to tackle behind the scenes. I probably only know about half of them, I guess. Here's some I can think of.
1. Tryn is not viable at high ELO, which is the elite game.
2. Tryn is 1v5 at low ELO, which is where most of the players are at.
3. Tryn has (had) so much damage end game, after 45 minutes, even if he fed the enemy team. This is counter productive.
4. Healing abilities destroy the agressive nature of the game. They want to remove passive laning.
5. Tryn needs to farm to become good, hence passive farming, passive laning is right up his alley.

My guess is that this is why they grant fury on any auto-hit. It means you can "afford" to hit, not just last-hit.
However, the new bloodlust (designed this way to keep the 'essence' of Tryn - that less health is more damage output) contradicts the champion design and ruins the synergy. Even though it feels they were TRYING to keep it.

I have given this much thought. I want to keep the champ fun, but allow for a balanced champion. I want to keep his design essence in tact, but make him partially viable. I would love constructive feedback, and I would love to hear Riot's thoughts about it.
Please recognise that some of your Tryndamere lovers recognise the painful situation that Tryndamere causes for you, and that we're (for the most part) sensible people who want what's best for the game. I'm not looking to become OP, I just want my champ to be fun again.

My proposal.
Bloodlust (Q)
Cooldown (is it 13 seconds?) keep it that.
Passive. At lower health, you deal more damage. Keep it the same.
For every crit, or kill, reduce cooldown by 0.5 seconds.
Active. Convert fury into Life Steal on a duration timer. The more fury consumed, the more life steal.
As the levels of bloodlust increase, the damage per health increases, and the life steal per fury increases. (Small increments!)

What this does:
Gives back meaningful decisions. You either keep the fury (and the passive) for high crit / high damage, or you lose the high crit for in-combat sustainability (which also lowers damage output). It keeps the champion aggressive in lane, in jungle, or in PvP. It removes some of the "I rage, I escape, I heal, I return again". (some, not all.)

How it synergises:
I'm in a fight. I'm down to about 1/3 my health, but I haven't secured a kill yet.
I press Q. I now deal less damage per second, but I hope that my sustainability will hold out long enough.
Unfortunately, someone else arrived to help him, and I'm gonna die.
RAGE!!!!!! (5 seconds of "I can't die yet")
I still have some life steal remaining, and now I have some crit chance too!! I will likely get that kill but as soon as I do, I need to escape or I will die!

It isn't perfect, perhaps.
You still have the part where Tryn rages, escapes on low health, finds a jungle camp, life steals back to half health and returns to laning. But this is not without risk, and seems a fair reward. You are predictable. You are susceptible to gank. You can even be killed by neutral monsters.

Balance issues:
If the cooldown isn't long enough, we'll always have extra life steal available. This isn't what I want.
If the coodown is too short, it won't be available when we need it. This isn't what I want. The cooldown reduction (if small enough) could address this. The longer we're in combat, the more we can use it.

If the lifesteal value, when matched with damage output, is too high, we leech more health than opponents can deal back at us. This means we'll NEVER leave combat and it perpetuates the problem. This isn't what I want.
If the lifesteal value is too low, it isn't worth using. If it isn't worth using we have the same problem as right now. This isn't what I want.
I am ok with the idea that at level 1 lifesteal %age is high, and REDUCES with other levels.
To counter this, there needs to be a significant passive ability increase per level to make us take it off level 1, or a diminishing returns on the value as your champion level increases.
I am happy with an idea of a complicated formula for this %, such as:
life steal % = Fury consumed * [19 - champ level] * 0.05 + 0.5

Is this feasible? Is this realistically achievable?
If Riot has a problem with implementing a change such as this, why? What issues are you trying to address that we are blindly oblivious to? Let us help you please.
i dont mean to burst your bubble but tryn plays the same way he used to, the numbers are just different, and to be honest, while i have no problem with people saying he wasnt the most viable, to say he was high risk high reward is just silly, he had a 6 sec invuln, has a spin that puts you out of range of ignite and a heal, what YOUR mad about is that hes no longer LOW risk HIGh reward, and that it doesnt take a perfectly timed ignite to kill him on account of 1 sec less on ult and lower heal amount.

sounds to me your mad that you cant jump face first into the enemies , roflpwn someone then jump out and survive, but lemme let you in on a little secret, most champs cant unless they are extremely farmed/fed, they made him more consistant in exchange for some of the damage and sustain in the invuln time tryn takes advantage of to kill people.

i didnt play tryn before the patch, because playing tryn was cheezy, it was for stomping without trying, now that they streamlined him, im picking him up.


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Bluebehir

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Senior Member

07-28-2011

Thank you for reading it, if you did.
I'd like to address your points.
1. He doesn't play like he used to. I used to spam keys, now I don't. I just ignore my heal ability, and keep my fury at 100. But it isn't fun to play like that.
2. How is "high risk/ high reward" silly? Provide some intel. High Risk: You die if you fail. High reward: You live if you succeed. There's so much more to the game than that, but that's the obvious first thought that people think about when they think about Tryn.
3. He has a 5 second invuln, not 6. It's a nitpick I know.
4. His spin puts you out of range of ignite only if you can get out of sight. Other champs have gap closers too, you know. Plus, they usually ignite long before I can spin. The heal is reduced by ignite, and is usually countered by it. Imagine. A DoT that reduces heal, and destroys healed life at the same time. I was only on 1 hp, so that means I die. (Remember that high risk part?)
5. Thank you for knowing my emotions better than I do. I'm mad about so many things, but not that he's "no longer LOW risk HIGH reward."
6. Perfectly timed ignite = "I hear his rage scream. Press F, click Tryn." Seems hard. But that is not the issue that I am trying to address in my OP. I am quite fine with this part of the game. High risk high reward.
7. Sounds to me that you think I jump face first into the enemies. I learned maybe 300 games ago that Trynd has to either find a 1v1 or wait outside the team fight until a target oversteps their reach. I know Tryn isn't a tank, and diving in gets me nuked. In reality, I'd rather push a lane then be tangled up in that. But you believe what you want.
8. I do love to roflpwn. Who doesn't? But that wasn't what made Tryn fun for me. I love to roflpwn with Cho just as much as I do Tryn.
9. Jump out and survive does seem to be the design impact of Tryndamere. If he can't do that, what can he do? (You'll say crit to kill, or spin to win, I guess.)
10. I'll let you into a little secret. I don't want Tryn to do what most champs can do. I don't want him to be OP either. I want him to have his own flavour, his own niche. I want him to be fun to play, but not overwhelming to the enemy. I want to farm if that's my goal this game. I want to jungle if that's my goal (if he's viable to do so). I want to have the choices that other champs have when that is the GAME DESIGN INTENTION to have these choices. But I want the champion to be fun at the same time.
11. How did they make him more consistant, please explain. I'm a tryn player, I know his faults inside out. I know what changed and what didn't. I've played him, I know the impacts that have occurred. I have won games and lost games since the patch. I know what I'm talking about. You just like to throw catch phrases around as if that disproves anything I've said. Give me hard facts.
12. I am happy for the "in exchange for some of the damage". However, we need the sustain if we want to be viable early game. They believe they achieved that. I believe they have not. I think you're actually talking about his ultimate, but I'll give you more credit to your argument and believe you're addressing the skill that I'm discussing in my original post.
13. You didn't play Tryn before the patch, so you actually don't know how his game WORKED. You only saw the results. You believe playing Tryn was cheesy because you never ACTUALLY PLAYED him (you said so, not me).
14. I'm happy for you to go pick him up but be warned. He's now more right click than he ever was. I want to change THAT part of his game.
15. Did you really need to quote my entire wall of text for a five line response when you didn't directly address any part of it?

-edit- Did I mention I like to roflpwn??? With words too.


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Bluebehir

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Senior Member

07-28-2011

Thank you for having some input.
On the whole, I don't know how it would affect other Tryndamere players, but in my mind, it would seem fun.
Your first question is an easy answer, but not short.
"Why replace instant heal with lifesteal?"
My first reason is because I believe that Riot feels that healing is detrimental to LoL. If what I want is at odds with what they want, then it won't happen. But if I find a way to fix what they want, but fix what I want, it's win/win.
Secondly, the heal - as it is - is ineffective and resource consuming. Ultimately when faced with the decision "Do I consume my fury for up to 300hp of healing?" I usually say "not bloodly likely!"

Currently to heal 300hp, I need to consume 100 fury when bloodlust = level 5 and AP = 0.
In doing so, I lose 100 fury which translates into 35% crit chance, and I lose my passive ability of bloodlust which is damage output.
The impact this has on MY gameplay is that I'll only press Q just before I go to base or by accident because my hands remember that it used to be effective
If I use it when I rage, I will probably die anyway, as a general rule of thumb.
Better Tryn's than I probably escape more than I do.

Right now there is no meaningful decision to be made. I just run around with my max fury as long as possible.
In fact, I don't even grab Bloodlust until about level 4 now. I'd rather not be ABLE to consume it, even by accident.


Life steal is the opposite. It promotes aggressive laning, and interaction between champions.
But ultimately, life steal is useful for Tryndamere, just as much as critical chance is.
In this fundamental, we force players to choose between two states of mode. High damage mode, or recovery mode.
It has to be the RIGHT AMOUNT. (playtesting obviously required!)
Too much, and he's OP. Too little, and we still have the same problem.
But life steal will add to any we already have, and will interact with the damage that we deal. It fits the champion's style. It provides sustainability IN COMBAT but if you use it too late, you can still die. If you use it too early, you're probably gonna waste some of it. There's timing and application involved.



regarding clutch moments, I won't address Sion, as I don't know enough about him.
For the sacrifice part, I'd rather sacrifice 35% critical strike for 5.5% additional lifesteal than I would a flat 300 hp any day of the week. With equipment I might be crit-hitting for 800 by now, 5% is 40 more health per hit. I think this gives more clutch moments than 300 health as I run away and hide.
The option to run away isn't removed, so we haven't LOST a clutch moment.
But if I consume my fury, I can now choose whether I stay or leave.
Maybe I still need to run away, but if I can spin through a wave of minions that might just be what I need to escape. Who knows? I think this has more applications than "heal 300hp" and so provides potential for more clutch moments.
But that is what I'd like to hear about from other people too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJBok
The reasoning behind this is because you would not consume all of the fury and lose the 35% crit unless you were most likely raging. As it is, you can consume the fury, gain the health, and try to spin away or disengage. With your changes, you would need to stay in the fight.
I would consume it. I would do so during laning, jungling, and occasionally during 1v1's. As I explained above we still have the choice to stay or leave.

Quote:
Your extra life steal will hardly get you anything, and you will not be critting, and you will still be easily nullified by CC or exhaust.
Well the amount can be tweaked. I've provided an example formula to show how it can be diminishing returns more than to provide the correct value. But as it turns out I wouldn't be disappointed by that.
We'll still be critting, but instead of 95% crits, we'll be at 60%. That's still once every two hits. And because our spin is now physical damage, it would apply life steal.
Yes, we're still nullified by CC or exhaust, that's a different issue and not one I think is broken.


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raynac

Senior Member

07-28-2011

TL dr most of it

Trynd is better now for me and I carry my team through almost eveyhame with him, man up bro he's still an insane carry

He was my main before the patch but i ran CRIT damage runes with him, the new passive synergies very well with this

Also wait until your ult is about to end to heal that ignite so that as little of it gets eaten away as possible

Also I find I now use wits end on him very often, it helps alot


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makkii

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Senior Member

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebehir View Post
Thank you for reading it, if you did.
I'd like to address your points.
1. He doesn't play like he used to. I used to spam keys, now I don't. I just ignore my heal ability, and keep my fury at 100. But it isn't fun to play like that.
2. How is "high risk/ high reward" silly? Provide some intel. High Risk: You die if you fail. High reward: You live if you succeed. There's so much more to the game than that, but that's the obvious first thought that people think about when they think about Tryn.
3. He has a 5 second invuln, not 6. It's a nitpick I know.
4. His spin puts you out of range of ignite only if you can get out of sight. Other champs have gap closers too, you know. Plus, they usually ignite long before I can spin. The heal is reduced by ignite, and is usually countered by it. Imagine. A DoT that reduces heal, and destroys healed life at the same time. I was only on 1 hp, so that means I die. (Remember that high risk part?)
5. Thank you for knowing my emotions better than I do. I'm mad about so many things, but not that he's "no longer LOW risk HIGH reward."
6. Perfectly timed ignite = "I hear his rage scream. Press F, click Tryn." Seems hard. But that is not the issue that I am trying to address in my OP. I am quite fine with this part of the game. High risk high reward.
7. Sounds to me that you think I jump face first into the enemies. I learned maybe 300 games ago that Trynd has to either find a 1v1 or wait outside the team fight until a target oversteps their reach. I know Tryn isn't a tank, and diving in gets me nuked. In reality, I'd rather push a lane then be tangled up in that. But you believe what you want.
8. I do love to roflpwn. Who doesn't? But that wasn't what made Tryn fun for me. I love to roflpwn with Cho just as much as I do Tryn.
9. Jump out and survive does seem to be the design impact of Tryndamere. If he can't do that, what can he do? (You'll say crit to kill, or spin to win, I guess.)
10. I'll let you into a little secret. I don't want Tryn to do what most champs can do. I don't want him to be OP either. I want him to have his own flavour, his own niche. I want him to be fun to play, but not overwhelming to the enemy. I want to farm if that's my goal this game. I want to jungle if that's my goal (if he's viable to do so). I want to have the choices that other champs have when that is the GAME DESIGN INTENTION to have these choices. But I want the champion to be fun at the same time.
11. How did they make him more consistant, please explain. I'm a tryn player, I know his faults inside out. I know what changed and what didn't. I've played him, I know the impacts that have occurred. I have won games and lost games since the patch. I know what I'm talking about. You just like to throw catch phrases around as if that disproves anything I've said. Give me hard facts.
12. I am happy for the "in exchange for some of the damage". However, we need the sustain if we want to be viable early game. They believe they achieved that. I believe they have not. I think you're actually talking about his ultimate, but I'll give you more credit to your argument and believe you're addressing the skill that I'm discussing in my original post.
13. You didn't play Tryn before the patch, so you actually don't know how his game WORKED. You only saw the results. You believe playing Tryn was cheesy because you never ACTUALLY PLAYED him (you said so, not me).
14. I'm happy for you to go pick him up but be warned. He's now more right click than he ever was. I want to change THAT part of his game.
15. Did you really need to quote my entire wall of text for a five line response when you didn't directly address any part of it?

-edit- Did I mention I like to roflpwn??? With words too.
1. he plays exactly like he used to, by not play him i mean i stopped playing him after i had took out to run a few times, enough to know what hes like
2.i didnt call high risk high reward silly, i called calling tryn high risk high reward silly...why? because hes not
4.his spin DOES put him just out of range of ignite, so unless you have a gap closer you need to time ignite perfectly because it needs to do enough damage after tryn heals to kill him, even with the minus healing.
5. if you pop ignite on tryn as soon as he ults your gunna waste 15 or so ignites a game, just saying.
6. hes more consistant because he now gains crit from bloodlust instead of from lost health, which makes his crits less spotty, but sacraficing mega crits from the +crit dmg, and as he loses health he now gains flat damage, which is a more consistent and reliable steroid for his damage. so he no longer gets lucky at the start of the game and rofl crits all your health in 3-4 blows, instead he crits you more consistantly with decent damage, but nothing bull**** cheesy.
13. i have played him, by dont play him i mean that after i tried i stopped, because i realized how cheesy he was

as a final note, tryn has always been and always will be the most right click hero in the game, dont try to spin his kit into something its not, its for breaking distance, and right clicking, hell, none of his skills beside spin does direct damage, and even then, half the time you just use it to close in. right click, right click, oh and more right click.


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PhoenixLaw

Senior Member

07-28-2011

Old tryndamere was better!


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Bluebehir

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Senior Member

07-29-2011

We'll never get old Tryn back. We have to work with what we have.


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Bees

Senior Member

07-29-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebehir View Post
My biggest problem with the new Trynd, is that he is not fun anymore. People think that we only found it fun when we pub stomped, but I had fun PLAYING him, not just winning with him. There was something about his design, the high risk / high reward that was so invigorating. There were meaningful decisions to make that I took for granted.

Now, he is no fun. I blame Bloodlust. It used to be awesome, and now it's lame. (No offense intended.)

I understand that Riot have so many issues they are trying to tackle behind the scenes. I probably only know about half of them, I guess. Here's some I can think of.
1. Tryn is not viable at high ELO, which is the elite game.
2. Tryn is 1v5 at low ELO, which is where most of the players are at.
Ok, I hear he isn't viable at high ELO, but I think it's a big misconception that he was amazing at low ELO. A lot of more casual players complained about Tryn before the nerf so a lot of people seem to think he thrived at that level. I can tell you (and show you http://www.riotstats.com/versions/1-36-18 look at any other version for different time period) that for the longest time he has won almost exactly half the games he played in. You don't get any more balanced than that. It's pretty clear he wasn't OP, even in average skill level games (where he was picked more often), before the patch.

If you or RIOT have any hard stats that show otherwise I'd love to see them.


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Bluebehir

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Senior Member

07-29-2011

I don't have hard stats, I am just referring to something I read from a riot post some time ago, and the public perception of him.
Perception that he is OP is just as important as whether he really is, I think.

Do your stats show something specific:
When Tryndamere wins in low ELO, how much of a k/d discrepancy is there between Tryn and his team, and Tryn and the enemy team?
Because when he shines in low ELO he completely outshines.

I think this was the problem that has been indicated. It's a reference that his game is "Binary", his value is either 0, ie, he is shut down absolutely
or his value is 1. He is the everything, and nobody can do anything against him.

I've played games where this is true (both cases) so I do agree, the old Tryndamere is binary.
But he was fun, even to lose with.


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