Sivir - To not be as useless as people say.

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Reiji Ozora

Senior Member

07-31-2011

Well, I took a look at your build and used it a bit, although I don't usually seem to get past my 4th core item. Then I did some math.

If, instead of those last two items in your builds that are mainly survivability you got yourself Infinity Edge/Phantom Dancer, you would approximately triple your DPS in fights.(199.1655787% extra damage)

This was calculated using Atmas/Warmog's instead of Frozen Mallet/Warmogs.(although there shouldn't be too much difference in terms of increased damage output)

Yes, it will give you a lot less resistance to magic.. but I am thinking that triple damage might be worth it.


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Hot Teen Guys

Senior Member

07-31-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiji Ozora View Post
Well, I took a look at your build and used it a bit, although I don't usually seem to get past my 4th core item. Then I did some math.

If, instead of those last two items in your builds that are mainly survivability you got yourself Infinity Edge/Phantom Dancer, you would approximately triple your DPS in fights.(199.1655787% extra damage)

This was calculated using Atmas/Warmog's instead of Frozen Mallet/Warmogs.(although there shouldn't be too much difference in terms of increased damage output)

Yes, it will give you a lot less resistance to magic.. but I am thinking that triple damage might be worth it.
While triple the damage might be worth it, it comes at the cost of two things:

One, relying on crit as your main form of damage. Which is problematic for two reasons:
  • You build 0 Armor pen outside the reds, so crit is actually worse. May be better to go for a starks or a Last Whisper instead of that PD still, and keep the IE, or grab more bloodthirsters.
  • Ricochet bounches don't crit, and a lot of your damage is in your ricochet, so building flat AD would probably be better.

Two, costs 2515 more gold.

She's a good farmer, but unless you're getting straight up fed, building PD IE is incredibly expensive even still. Even now, full build takes about 300+ CS, and a few kills on top of that.

Once again, playing around with it, but honestly, I prefer being the tanky DPS health regen/lifesteal offtank for the team, rather than running as a hard carry. Situationally, you do want to run more damage, though.


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Reiji Ozora

Senior Member

07-31-2011

Granted, you will have more survivability. However, Your damage is reduced based on your first hit.

That means if your first target is crit, the rest of the bounces receive the same crit. This means that the increased damage from a critical strike is carrying across the board when this happens. The bounces are based off a percentage of the first damage. Therefore, 75% of a crit is passed on after the first target is crit. This means crit is not wasted.

Also, you are counting 2515 based on your SV build, I believe. It is much closer if you go off your combined Warmog's/Frozen Mallet combo.

Lastly, Phantom Dancer costs 2845. It's not super expensive. It's only 670 more than FoN. Getting it last will improve your DPS by 62.7%(rounded), according to my calculations.

Now, if you are going up against a magic-heavy team, I could see ending with a FoN or BV, but if they are balanced I think I'd take the PD.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

07-31-2011

If you're doing a "tanky Sivir" I recommdn the BV instead. Chaining the BV's shield with your SS works wonders. Often times opponents will think they've poked off your shield only to have a second one pop up and block their stun or their nuke. It gives sizable MR, and a good chunk of HP which goes into your Atmas for more damage.

The one thing I actually don't like about your build is the Warmogs. While in of itself, the Mog/Atma combo is pretty nice, the problem falls into when to buy Warmogs. If you rush it too early, you lack damage for the mid game. If you buy it too late, it's far less effective as other carries have picked up their big ticket items, the HP will be gone in a few auto attacks.

Personally ,when I run tankyDPS sivir, the end build looks something like:
Merc Treads, Bloodthirster, Banshee's Veil, Frozen Mallet, Stark's, Atma's

Build order varies depending on situation. BV + Mallet is only about 100-200 HP off a fully stacked Warmogs. Starks cause you need attack speed and some extra life steal to sustain yourself.

I also run scaling AS Red-runes, between the runes, starks and ult...that's enough AS.

My masteries go 0/21/9 as well because I want the 4% DR cause I'm tanky right?
If I want more DPS in the build I'll drop something for a Last Whisper.

Also

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiji Ozora View Post
Your damage is reduced based on your first hit.

That means if your first target is crit, the rest of the bounces receive the same crit. This means that the increased damage from a critical strike is carrying across the board when this happens. The bounces are based off a percentage of the first damage. Therefore, 75% of a crit is passed on after the first target is crit. This means crit is not wasted.
That's not true. Ricochet damage does not "pass down crit". Crit will never increase the damage on Ricochet bounces. The damage is based off you raw damage modified by their armor and modified by armor penetration...then reduced based on what bounce it is. Crit does not factor in. Only your first target will received crit damage.


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Reiji Ozora

Senior Member

07-31-2011

That doesn't seem to be the way that the skill reads. The skill says each bounce gets 25% less damage. Less damage means less damage.

Edit: You seem to be under the impression that I am saying ricochet bounces crit. They do not crit. However, their damage is based on the damage done by the original hit. Say a normal hit will do 100 damage. Therefore the first bounce will do 75. But if the original has a critical strike to double the damage to 200, then the first bounce should hit for 150 damage. This damage is double the normal damage done by the bounce without a critical on the original hit. Therefore, even though the ricochets are not getting crits(the 150 doesn't suddenly crit to 300), the critical strikes will indeed pass on increased damage to later targets. Therefore, critical strikes do have meaning on Sivir. It would be crazy damage if the bounces crit, but they don't. However, the increased damage from the first target means more damage later on. Yes, I know the example of the damage done doesn't account for armor. However, the 25% reduction in damage from each bounce means that armor pen just isn't going to cut it for increasing damage. The damage on the primary target is where you know you will be doing the damage you want. Everything else is just a bonus.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

08-01-2011

no, I know what you mean, the bounces do not benefit from the first hit Critting. That's what I'm saying. Test it out if you don't believe me.

If the original hit would do 100 damage, the first bounce will do 75 (to be modified by armor of the victim and your armor pen)

If you crit and you do 200 to the initial target, the bounce will still only do 75 (again to be modified by armor and armor pen).

This is why Armor pen is good on sivir and crit is not.


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Hot Teen Guys

Senior Member

08-01-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaerellG View Post
If you're doing a "tanky Sivir" I recommdn the BV instead. Chaining the BV's shield with your SS works wonders. Often times opponents will think they've poked off your shield only to have a second one pop up and block their stun or their nuke. It gives sizable MR, and a good chunk of HP which goes into your Atmas for more damage.

The one thing I actually don't like about your build is the Warmogs. While in of itself, the Mog/Atma combo is pretty nice, the problem falls into when to buy Warmogs. If you rush it too early, you lack damage for the mid game. If you buy it too late, it's far less effective as other carries have picked up their big ticket items, the HP will be gone in a few auto attacks.

Personally ,when I run tankyDPS sivir, the end build looks something like:
Merc Treads, Bloodthirster, Banshee's Veil, Frozen Mallet, Stark's, Atma's

Build order varies depending on situation. BV + Mallet is only about 100-200 HP off a fully stacked Warmogs. Starks cause you need attack speed and some extra life steal to sustain yourself.

I also run scaling AS Red-runes, between the runes, starks and ult...that's enough AS.

My masteries go 0/21/9 as well because I want the 4% DR cause I'm tanky right?
If I want more DPS in the build I'll drop something for a Last Whisper.

Also


That's not true. Ricochet damage does not "pass down crit". Crit will never increase the damage on Ricochet bounces. The damage is based off you raw damage modified by their armor and modified by armor penetration...then reduced based on what bounce it is. Crit does not factor in. Only your first target will received crit damage.
Yep, BV is worth running at times, but at others, you just need the extra hard MR, because sivir has horrible base MR.

And the reason you'd rush a BT is to not limit your damage whilst building Mogs. Full stack BT on top of ArP reds and AD quints is a lot of damage. You can skip the mogs and go straight for a mallet followed by more resistance rather than Mogs too. It IS rather situational, which is why the Mobafire guide builder is somewhat flawed. In order to get a sense of what the guide maker really suggests, you have to read all the item suggestions in the description. Over on the Solomid guide, you can see I add a lot of choice starting at the first suggested mogs.


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