[Guide] My Crit is Over 9000: Ashe

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Ryoshi

Member

09-09-2009

I always get Philo stone first, simply because the regen is nice and even the +5 gold helps with Ashe's already amazing farming potential.

It cracks me up to see new Ashe players focus on crit and damage, before improving her survivability with hp and mana regen and some +movement items.

I feel Ashe truly shines once you have gotten Philo's Stone, Boots of Swiftness, and Infinity Blade. Get those first, and you will be golden.


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Veritas

The Council

09-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightstriker View Post
I'd like to say that currently Philo stone probably seems like it would be a MUCH better buy then avarice blade, unless you're not taking pendant as your starting item, and even then it still might be true.
I'm going to change the guide to say any gold/10 item. I have to agree with you, since Ashe has serious mana issues and a philosopher's stone would work well.


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Kassar

Member

09-09-2009

Nice build Veritas. Im test yesterday and works very fine to me. The only change is the Avarice Blade.

Philosopher Stone > Avarice Blade


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Veritas

The Council

09-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kassar View Post
Nice build Veritas. Im test yesterday and works very fine to me. The only change is the Avarice Blade.

Philosopher Stone > Avarice Blade
Agreed.


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IHaveCrayons

Recruiter

09-09-2009

I am going to try this. I have been doing pretty good with my build, but I think you made some good points on why you DON'T need certain items. I usually go 2x Avarice Blade, Boots of Swiftness, Infinity Edge, Black Cleaver and then Bloodthirster and it has worked out pretty well. I deal a TON of damage, but have serious survivability issues late game so your advice should help.


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Foreshadowed

Senior Member

09-09-2009

You've got a weak build.


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Shirokuma

The Council

09-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritas View Post
1. Plentiful Bounty at level 2 gives +2 gold per every additional creep kill (I think). This is incredibly negligible.
2. If you had infinite mana and had no cooldown on Volley, I'd say sure, this strat would be great. However, when it comes to it, if you're constantly using Volley to last hit, you're going to run out of mana really fast. Even with a Maki Pendant, spamming it constantly means you're going to run out. And before you say it, yes, you WILL run out. Not to mention that volley is pretty easy to dodge, as long as they're aligned properly. And if you're in a lane against double stun (sion/cryo, taric/cry) or even heavy nuke (lich solo, lich/anyone, cryo/annie, etc) you're going to be able to fire off Volley maybe twice before you either die or are forced to heal (ESPECIALLY if you're autoattacking and aren't close to your tower).
3. Ashe has 2 stages to her game. At the beginning she helps with utility with her slow/stun. Without frost shot, your team won't have a permaslow on their heroes. Yes, absolutely, they will have flash. Guess what? You do too! There's no reason you can't flash to catch up and continually slow them so your team catches up. Even without a single +damage item, you do ENOUGH damage that you can easily kill non-tanks.
4. Phage isn't what you should be rushing, since Ashe already possesses a slow. A spell shield will help your survivability a lot more than any HP item.
5. Ashe doesn't really get focused because he puts out a lot of damage (although that becomes the case later in the game). He gets focused because he's a weak hero with no escape.

It may seem like your strat works now, but wait until a draft mode comes out and people can actually counterpick with good lanes.
I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to provide constructive criticism. You're assuming a great deal of things about my playstyle (many of which are inaccurate.) I've dealt with a 1v2 lane of Scion/Ryze, Taric/Cryo, etc. and always am able to manage myself well. So before you actually nitpick at my strategy, realize that with the change in build comes a change in playstyle. First off, I don't blindly spam Volley, and as I said, with a full set of Clarity Glyphs I never have mana issues. The only time I run out of mana is when I intend to, which is more or less whenever I've made enough gold that I'm set to blue pill to base, buy items, refresh hp/mana, and teleport back into my lane.

The first thing you need to realize is that Volley has both a ridiculously long range and decently fast projectile velocity. This means I'm safe to cast it and connect with an enemy at a distance where they're still unable to hit me. This invalidates your point that I'm going to get nuked to death while using it.

Second, your point that Plentiful Bounty only gives +2 gold per kill at level 2 doesn't mean anything. In that case, why even bother getting it at 13-15/17-18? I mean, it only starts with +1 gold per kill at its first level, why even bother? Re-read what I wrote: the point of leveling Plentiful Bounty early on is so that you can still switch between Volley and Plentiful Bounty to put Volley at its most effective state it can be at as soon as possible while still attaining level 5 Plentiful Bounty at level 9. Level 9 means you have a total of 9 skill points to distribute. With 5 in Plentiful Bounty and 1 in Enchanted Crystal Arrow, this leaves us with 3 to put into Volley, which means the earliest we can finish putting our 3 points into it is level 5. Using Volley at rank 1 is ridiculous to say the least; if you're going to spam Volley at level 1, go ahead and build Bloodthirster, Phantom Dancer, and Berserker's Greaves like a real level 1 Pub "Pro". If you do choose to get it to use it defensively due to being stuck in a 1v2 lane, use it sparingly until you get level 3, at which point you should be using it more frequently in order to keep the other players harassed. No matter what you do, that leaves us with Volley at level 3 by 5, and two points to spend elsewhere, which are put into Plentiful Bounty in order to jump it to level 5 soon after you get your ult.

Ashe has three stages, and if you fail to understand that, you need to re-evaluate how the progression of a game of LoL plays out. The first stage is the simple laning phase, next is mid-game ganking, and final stage is where you faceroll your keyboard with the godly items you farmed to carry your team to victory. The first stage requires no use of Frost Shot whatsoever. During the second stage, while towers are still being pushed down, the ability to chase can't even remotely hold a candle to the ability to simply disable someone (via your ult or another player). The final stage, where most towers of one or both teams are down, players constantly use the jungles to escape/gank (rather than walking next to a tower) is where Frost Shot comes into play, which is why until then, you don't really need it, and it doesn't help you as much as the extra gold from farming. Also, Attack Power's natural scaling is horrendous at best, and to say that without items you have enough damage is a horrid argument, because that is entirely not true. Ashe's mid game teamplay consists of two skills: Enchanted Crystal Arrow and Volley.

As for flash, you ignored what I said about the distance of towers. Most people play this game conservatively; as such, after using flash to escape, they'll already be standing on top of their tower. During the laning phase and mid-game phase, you don't have nearly enough HP to jump onto a tower and finish off an enemy while the tower does naughty things to your health bar. However, if that's your playstyle, feel free to flash after an opponent and kill yourself in the process.

I agree that Phage shouldn't be rushed, but I disagree that you should have a slow before you get Phage. With Plentiful Bounty maxed at level 9, you become the ultimate farming machine.

As for Ashe getting focused, I really don't know what to tell you. Ashe doesn't have an immediate escape mechanism in her standard abilities, but by the end of the game (when people realize that you're the biggest threat) you can get away from a single target chasing you by using Frost Shot and walking away/juking them, ulting them and running, or using flash if there are multiple people chasing you. If you have issues escaping as Ashe, you're doing it wrong. Sure she's squishy and feels rather awkward to run away with, but watching Taric fire off a stun that you flash away from halfway through the animation is pretty entertaining.

Just because you think your strategy is the best doesn't mean it's the only one that works; I wasn't trying to offer a universally "better" strategy, I was merely trying to provide another one that works better for people who approach Ashe differently than you do. Next time someone drops a comment about a potential build, try to actually test it out before you expose the forums to your nerdrage. And even if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean "OMGZ THAT BUILD SUX." It just means it doesn't fit your playstyle.


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Veritas

The Council

09-09-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirokuma View Post
I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to provide constructive criticism. You're assuming a great deal of things about my playstyle (many of which are inaccurate.) I've dealt with a 1v2 lane of Scion/Ryze, Taric/Cryo, etc. and always am able to manage myself well. So before you actually nitpick at my strategy, realize that with the change in build comes a change in playstyle. First off, I don't blindly spam Volley, and as I said, with a full set of Clarity Glyphs I never have mana issues. The only time I run out of mana is when I intend to, which is more or less whenever I've made enough gold that I'm set to blue pill to base, buy items, refresh hp/mana, and teleport back into my lane.
I never said you were arguing with me, I'm just responding to what you wrote and finding flaws in your strategy (just like what you're doing with mine).

I guarantee that you won't farm anything in a lane against a GOOD Sion/Ryze or Sion/Cryo. You will get destroyed. All it takes is Ryze/Sion standing on your side of the creeps, and preventing you from farming by stunning you the second you show yourself. I'm sure there are times when you'll go against an extremely passive combo, but that would be at lower ELO levels and against newer players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirokuma View Post
The first thing you need to realize is that Volley has both a ridiculously long range and decently fast projectile velocity. This means I'm safe to cast it and connect with an enemy at a distance where they're still unable to hit me. This invalidates your point that I'm going to get nuked to death while using it.
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I'm not saying you're going to get nuked to death BECAUSE you're standing there volleying, I'm saying that volleyfarming won't stop you from getting killed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirokuma View Post
Second, your point that Plentiful Bounty only gives +2 gold per kill at level 2 doesn't mean anything. In that case, why even bother getting it at 13-15/17-18? I mean, it only starts with +1 gold per kill at its first level, why even bother? Re-read what I wrote: the point of leveling Plentiful Bounty early on is so that you can still switch between Volley and Plentiful Bounty to put Volley at its most effective state it can be at as soon as possible while still attaining level 5 Plentiful Bounty at level 9. Level 9 means you have a total of 9 skill points to distribute. With 5 in Plentiful Bounty and 1 in Enchanted Crystal Arrow, this leaves us with 3 to put into Volley, which means the earliest we can finish putting our 3 points into it is level 5. Using Volley at rank 1 is ridiculous to say the least; if you're going to spam Volley at level 1, go ahead and build Bloodthirster, Phantom Dancer, and Berserker's Greaves like a real level 1 Pub "Pro". If you do choose to get it to use it defensively due to being stuck in a 1v2 lane, use it sparingly until you get level 3, at which point you should be using it more frequently in order to keep the other players harassed. No matter what you do, that leaves us with Volley at level 3 by 5, and two points to spend elsewhere, which are put into Plentiful Bounty in order to jump it to level 5 soon after you get your ult.
You get it at 13-15/17-18 because there is nothing else to get? I don't understand the question. No one said anything about spamming volley. In fact, that's the OPPOSITE of what I want people to do. You use volley to occasionally last hit more than one creep, and to have a long range slow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirokuma View Post
Ashe has three stages, and if you fail to understand that, you need to re-evaluate how the progression of a game of LoL plays out. The first stage is the simple laning phase, next is mid-game ganking, and final stage is where you faceroll your keyboard with the godly items you farmed to carry your team to victory. The first stage requires no use of Frost Shot whatsoever. During the second stage, while towers are still being pushed down, the ability to chase can't even remotely hold a candle to the ability to simply disable someone (via your ult or another player). The final stage, where most towers of one or both teams are down, players constantly use the jungles to escape/gank (rather than walking next to a tower) is where Frost Shot comes into play, which is why until then, you don't really need it, and it doesn't help you as much as the extra gold from farming. Also, Attack Power's natural scaling is horrendous at best, and to say that without items you have enough damage is a horrid argument, because that is entirely not true. Ashe's mid game teamplay consists of two skills: Enchanted Crystal Arrow and Volley.
Frost Shot has netted me more kills than I can count - Early game and mid game. Your entire strategy pretty much equates to you sitting in a lane farming while your team fights 4v5. Sure, you're throwing them an arrow every once in a while, but it's nice to have extra damage and a consistent slow available. Your outlook on the game is going to cripple you later on, especially if you tend to unconscionably follow it. Your game count is relatively low: have you played every hero in the game yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirokuma View Post
As for flash, you ignored what I said about the distance of towers. Most people play this game conservatively; as such, after using flash to escape, they'll already be standing on top of their tower. During the laning phase and mid-game phase, you don't have nearly enough HP to jump onto a tower and finish off an enemy while the tower does naughty things to your health bar. However, if that's your playstyle, feel free to flash after an opponent and kill yourself in the process.
I was specifically referring to team fights in jungles and during pushes. Regardless, if you succeed in getting your opponent to use their flash and/or go back to base, you've stopped their farm. Flash has a 360 second cooldown, so next time they won't have an easy escape, which means you'll be in control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirokuma View Post
I agree that Phage shouldn't be rushed, but I disagree that you should have a slow before you get Phage. With Plentiful Bounty maxed at level 9, you become the ultimate farming machine.
Being the ultimate farming machine doesn't make you useful until later in the game. Sacrificing a point in Frost Shot for an extra gold per kill is not going to make or break the game. I would rather take 2 points in volley and 1 point in frost shot if I were to rush plentiful bounty at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirokuma View Post
As for Ashe getting focused, I really don't know what to tell you. Ashe doesn't have an immediate escape mechanism in her standard abilities, but by the end of the game (when people realize that you're the biggest threat) you can get away from a single target chasing you by using Frost Shot and walking away/juking them, ulting them and running, or using flash if there are multiple people chasing you. If you have issues escaping as Ashe, you're doing it wrong. Sure she's squishy and feels rather awkward to run away with, but watching Taric fire off a stun that you flash away from halfway through the animation is pretty entertaining.
Her arrow lasts about 1/2 a second using it point blank. The majority of the time, this isn't enough to escape. As for flashing away, what if it's not up? And what if theirs is up? You're assuming best-case scenarios which rarely happen. In a 5v5 team fight where Amumu/Nunu ults and Lich is chasing after you, you're going to want some meat on those bones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirokuma View Post
Just because you think your strategy is the best doesn't mean it's the only one that works; I wasn't trying to offer a universally "better" strategy, I was merely trying to provide another one that works better for people who approach Ashe differently than you do. Next time someone drops a comment about a potential build, try to actually test it out before you expose the forums to your nerdrage. And even if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean "OMGZ THAT BUILD SUX." It just means it doesn't fit your playstyle.
Not really sure why you think I'm nerd raging. The first few weeks I played I did the whole 'max bounty first' strat. I'm just pointing out flaws that I've found using that strategy.

Also: Did you even try MY strategy out?


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Shirokuma

The Council

09-09-2009

Not going to quote the post because it's just getting too long. Anyways, yes I've tried it. It works but at the severe cost of a respectable damage output. You're also assuming the best case scenario when you say flash as a 360 second cooldown; most higher skilled players go utility to decrease that substantially.

However, yes, you are right that I have a low game count. I've played most heroes, but due to only recently getting into the beta, I've had to more or less figure out particular heroes that fit my playstyle and specialize with them while browsing through the other heroes to determine what their skills/pros/cons are for when I come up against them. Currently sticking with Ashe, Morgana, Fiddlestix, Veigar, and Kassadin.

Again, I don't know if you'll be able to keep me from going for Plentiful Bounty early game, but I have considered switching my build a bit so that I get Frost Shot at 10/12/13/14/15. By the end of the game, Volley is there more or less just for the long range slow, not for the damage, and this would help your late-midgame out quite a bit.

One thing to note, however, is that I solely play Ashe as a solo hero. If I was put in a 2 person lane, I'd get Frost Shot earlier; however, being in a solo lane gives you the advantage of outleveling your opponents and a full wave worth of creeps all to yourself. Especially if I took Frost Shot at 10+, I'd have it by the time any real engagements started. If you try to assist in a teamfight before that point, all Ashe is really capable of doing, especially with a strategy built around survivability, is sit there and slow the target with a very weak auto attack and a Volley or two, alongside your ult (which you'll have no matter what build/items you take.)

That being said, I wouldn't pick Ashe if I knew in advance that I'd be in a 2v2 lane.


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h4rdcor3

Senior Member

09-09-2009

I like the sound of your build along with the discussion that has ensued between you and Shirokuma. It offers a lot more to think about when playing ashe. The one thing I hate about Ashe is having to spend so much gold getting the Infinity Edge. So I took my runes and now have +53% crit and +33 mana. I will probably drop 1 or two of the Glyph crit damage and get more a bit more mana. This way I can spend the extra 4000 gold on another great item.