@ RIOT DEV TEAM (champion rework team) - An idea for Tryndamere's Bloodlust ability

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Bluebehir

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07-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deeve View Post
Well I'd disagree that perception of OPness is as important as reality. I think it's always just better to inform the public of reality /w strong evidence (like hard stats). Maybe people just remember that string of crits that killed them quickly rather than the times tryn didn't get stacks and they outdamaged him. Maybe they remember the long games where he felt scary and forget the short games they dominated quickly and won. As long as the trade off for actually playing trynd is equal it's fine, otherwise people will just stop playing him. That trade off was equal before (as far as stats show me) maybe it still will be.
I hope you read my other posts. I saved yours for last because my comments there reflect here as well.
People DO remember the string of crits, the games where Tryn two-shot killed them or left them on 12 health. They remember the games where Tryn fed them early game 0/20 but still destroyed 4 turrets and an inhibitor and aced the team twice.

Sure, as a Tryn player, we know we have the opposite games as well. But for SOME players, they don't know how to end the game quickly enough. They don't know how to deny xp and gold. They don't know how to defend against Tryn and kite instead of allowing him to engage, and so on.
The game, for Tryn was too binary. If you knew how to beat him, he could never beat you. If you didn't know how to beat him, you could never beat him by chance.
In reality, Tryn wins half his games. However, in reality, he leaves a bad taste in the mouth for 65% of the players. That's where perception plays its role.
For this reason, we'll never get the old Tryn back.
It's why the ulti was reduced to 5 seconds and we'll never get it back.
It's why fury only grants us 35% crit chance, when it used to give us 50% and more before that.
It's why the crit system was recoded to balance out the amount of crits delivered (a huge nerf for Tryn with 70% crit chance).
It's why Tryn got every nerf they ever tried on him, but never achieving their goal. So they had to remake him.

I am hoping to find the middle ground. The fun Tryn, the balanced Tryn, the stable Tryn that we can do well with, but not the same way as the old Tryn.


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Bluebehir

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07-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by iAteMyVegetables View Post
Omg you guys suck. If you're losing matches with Tryndamere or you don't have 10+ kills anymore every match then you suck, 'cause it's still one of the most op champion in this entire game. What kind of bs is it that the lower his hp gets the stronger he becomes? He kills two champions end game just on his ult lol. And I've seen Tryndamere's with life steal items. They regen their hp so fast it's not normal. I hope riot isn't taking you newbs serious. Tryndamere needs a nerf. He's not suppose to hit that high while having the most op ult in the game. And a heal skill on a auto attacker? Dumb stuff.
Thanks for trolling, but I'll pretend you're serious. Briefly. But not the subjective parts.
"the lower his hp gets the stronger he becomes" is actually the underlying character design. Every champ has one. What kind of BS is it where the more things Cho eats, the bigger, fatter, stronger he becomes? See?
"He kills two champs end game just on his ult lol".
He gets 5 secs of ult. He can reduce two champions from full to zero, in 5 seconds?
That's roughly 6 attacks, maybe 7. I guess it can be done, but I think you forget to factor in the time he spent attacking and losing health BEFORE he used that ult. It ain't just his ult.

You've seen Tryn's with life steal items. Wow. Have you seen one without? What happens to HIM? Tryn begins with 559 health. He finishes on about 2200. That's called a glass cannon. High damage output, low health total. When he lifesteals, he does so based on his high damage. But what you SEE is the fact that 500 health from lifesteal is actually about 25% of his total health. So you see him get back 1/4 of his life. Vladamere on the other hand has such a massive pool of life you can't tell how much he's getting back.

He has the most OP ult in the game? He gets 5 seconds of "if I take damage I can't go below 1hp". That means that if he hits his ult and you stop attacking him, he hasn't done ANYTHING. If you resume the attack after 4 seconds, he has no safety net. He will die.
If he hits it and you take him to 1hp, ignite within the last 4 seconds of his ult and you will almost always kill him.
Exhaust him, he can't hurt you. Blind, stun, fear, knockup, knockback, go invis and so on.
Tryndamere can actually WASTE his ult by clicking it when he has too much life, or not enough threat of death. It runs out and did NOTHING for him! (So OP)


Poppy's ult, for example, lasts six seconds. He can only click it by targetting an enemy. He deals extra damage against that enemy, and becomes IMMUNE to ALL DAMAGE from ALL ENEMIES, INCLUDING TURRETS.

Even showing one ult superior to Tryndamere's proves that his is not "the most OP ult in the game"

A heal on a right click champ? Well why not? If you take away every thing that needs a click or a keypress, all you're left with is a right click champ. You argue to make him MORE right click!! (which means he needs to be balanced by having stronger attacks.)
I mean, Vlad heals, Mundo heals, Sion heals, Janna and Soraka heal, Warwick heals, Irelia heals, Kayle heals, Cho'Gath heals. Heck. It ain't like he's the only one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iAteMyVegetables View Post
Just delete the champ so no more complaints from me
Fixed.


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Asphyxiophiliac

Junior Member

07-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebehir View Post
I almost agree with you.
However, that 36% extra crit damage - while nice - wasn't what made trynda trynda, to use your phrase
It *was* a big part of Tryndamere's style. Don't get me wrong. But in reality, that 36% crit damage was just icing.
We were already getting (and still get) 260% crit damage, but that made it 296%.
On paper, triple damage all the time is just a bit much. On paper, that just doesn't seem fair. (I love dealing trip damage, don't get me wrong! But let's be broad minded, from the PoV of Trynd haters and Riot dev team)

So they nerfed him to 2.5 times damage, to show the MAJORITY of players that they are hearing the call. In return, they gave us little tricks that are subtle and can't be noticed. Like Spinning slash allowing us to cast Mocking Shout at the same time.
So instead of taking 2.1 hits to kill an Ashe, it takes us 2.8. From our point of view, it still takes three hits. But from ASHE's point of view, she didn't just get ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED in two hits.



What I am trying to do is find the adjustment that restores synergy and fun, while still achieving the balance Riot needs, while also removing the bad perception of Tryn.
People believe he's OP because when he's played well he IS op... (well... was....) at low to mid ELO, that is.
i completely agree with you on this matter. i was just saying they took out how he was played now you build and kinda play him Like you would Yi. if they brought back the crit%dmg not 30 somthing but a good 25 would be nice it dosnt tip the scales like it used to but it dose give him that proper feel instead of just speed slash run away you can get in get that rage up start cirting and do what he dose.

with all the cool downs the way they are it makes low to mid elo hard for them and well he'll just get CCed in high elo and be a complete waste. with the synergism were all talking about with his hp to crit to dmg ratios in high elo that is the only thing that would keep him going.

he a bit better balanced now but his ealry game is only better for passive farming or WELL coordinated ganks. wel it comes to a team fight before hes half farmd or morderetly fed hes a usless spit in them. is dmg isnt high enough and his cool downs arnt quick enough to come around. his only real use atm is to farm till late game and maybe get an assassination or 2.

But yes still at late game if hes farmed or fed he is still OP and ruiens your day but hey if lee Xin or any other AD carry had a not Die button late game would make them OP as well.


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iAteMyVegetables

Senior Member

07-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebehir View Post
Thanks for trolling, but I'll pretend you're serious. Briefly. But not the subjective parts.
"the lower his hp gets the stronger he becomes" is actually the underlying character design. Every champ has one. What kind of BS is it where the more things Cho eats, the bigger, fatter, stronger he becomes? See?
"He kills two champs end game just on his ult lol".
He gets 5 secs of ult. He can reduce two champions from full to zero, in 5 seconds?
That's roughly 6 attacks, maybe 7. I guess it can be done, but I think you forget to factor in the time he spent attacking and losing health BEFORE he used that ult. It ain't just his ult.

You've seen Tryn's with life steal items. Wow. Have you seen one without? What happens to HIM? Tryn begins with 559 health. He finishes on about 2200. That's called a glass cannon. High damage output, low health total. When he lifesteals, he does so based on his high damage. But what you SEE is the fact that 500 health from lifesteal is actually about 25% of his total health. So you see him get back 1/4 of his life. Vladamere on the other hand has such a massive pool of life you can't tell how much he's getting back.

He has the most OP ult in the game? He gets 5 seconds of "if I take damage I can't go below 1hp". That means that if he hits his ult and you stop attacking him, he hasn't done ANYTHING. If you resume the attack after 4 seconds, he has no safety net. He will die.
If he hits it and you take him to 1hp, ignite within the last 4 seconds of his ult and you will almost always kill him.
Exhaust him, he can't hurt you. Blind, stun, fear, knockup, knockback, go invis and so on.
Tryndamere can actually WASTE his ult by clicking it when he has too much life, or not enough threat of death. It runs out and did NOTHING for him! (So OP)


Poppy's ult, for example, lasts six seconds. He can only click it by targetting an enemy. He deals extra damage against that enemy, and becomes IMMUNE to ALL DAMAGE from ALL ENEMIES, INCLUDING TURRETS.

Even showing one ult superior to Tryndamere's proves that his is not "the most OP ult in the game"

A heal on a right click champ? Well why not? If you take away every thing that needs a click or a keypress, all you're left with is a right click champ. You argue to make him MORE right click!! (which means he needs to be balanced by having stronger attacks.)
I mean, Vlad heals, Mundo heals, Sion heals, Janna and Soraka heal, Warwick heals, Irelia heals, Kayle heals, Cho'Gath heals. Heck. It ain't like he's the only one.


Fixed.
You didn't have too put your whole life story here, geez.

Anyways, I'm not the only one complaining about Tryndamere most people are. The thing is, alot of people say he's op and alot of people say he's up. That's the whole problem. And I don't get how you can call the strongest hitting champion up. And he's a glass cannon? His ult says otherwise, that's the problem. I know alot of champs can do great damage end game. Problem is it still isn't the same as Tryndamere, and those other champions can get killed easily. But when you try and kill a tryndamere he probably owns you 1 vs 1, and then he ults and kills you + another champion and then retreats. And don't say he doesn't do that 'cause it's true. Poppy's ult is nice yes, but she doesn't hit as high as a Trynd and she also can still die by 1 champion. Yes, you can put the ult on the tank or whoever you think is the smartest. But atleast she can still get damaged. And you can easily run from Poppy while she ults. So you can get 1 kill in her ult and then you kinda have to retreat. Oh also, doesn't Tryndamere have a pretty short ult cd? 'Cause I see him use it in every fight. While Poppy got a pretty long cd. Owell whatever I doubt that Riot listens to players anyways. I'm sure they test the champions themselfs and give these dumbass nerfs or buffs.


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Bluebehir

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Senior Member

07-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by iAteMyVegetables View Post
You didn't have too put your whole life story here, geez.

Anyways, I'm not the only one complaining about Tryndamere most people are.
Agreed. In fact, more than ever before.

Quote:
The thing is, alot of people say he's op and alot of people say he's up. That's the whole problem.
Agreed. This is called a binary game. In a good game, he's OP. In a bad game he's UP. However, the further up the ELO you go, the more consistantly he has a bad game. (The reverse is also true.)

Quote:
And I don't get how you can call the strongest hitting champion up.
Because the champion is the sum of all its parts. The champion that is strongest in damage output is also the weakest in resilience. In what ever game you look at.
But if he has enough Achilles' Heels, then it doesn't make a difference if he does triple damage. For example. Try closing the gap on Ashe 1v1.

Quote:
And he's a glass cannon? His ult says otherwise, that's the problem. I know alot of champs can do great damage end game. Problem is it still isn't the same as Tryndamere, and those other champions can get killed easily. But when you try and kill a tryndamere he probably owns you 1 vs 1, and then he ults and kills you + another champion and then retreats. And don't say he doesn't do that 'cause it's true.
Arguing that Tryndamere can probably kill you 1v1 isn't a fair argument.
That is the EXACT JOB of a carry. And to be fair, any tanky DPS could probably do the same. But this game isn't a series of 1v1 encounters. It's a team game, with team compositions and team fights. Sure, they start off with the occasional 1v1 and 2v2's.
But in the start of the game, Tryndamere really is weaker than you would probably like to admit.
At the end game, Tryndamere is one of (if not THE) strongest champions 1v1, but by that stage, the game is at the LEAST 3v3.
Now it might be the case that when your teams oppose a Tryndamere he can 1v3. I am not able to comment on that without video footage.
But in my games, I fail in 3v3, which quickly become 2v3 and we lose that fight.

You believe that every Tryndamere is capable of 1v1'ing against you and then taking someone else down for the heck of it. Maybe that's true.
I will concede that it IS possible.
There's one choice to make when you ult, there's two possibilities.
The goal is to live. You can live by fleeing, or you can live by killing the foe.
Usually, when I ult, it's because I just got smashed, and I can see my health being destroyed. That means I'm losing. So I flee.
Some people use it more aggressively I guess. They attack past the point of safe return because they have the ult. They chase down the target, pop the ult, get the kill, and then flee.
It means:
-their team isn't protecting them, or
-they are over extended anyway and have too far to travel back to safety, or
-any number of mistakes made by the dead guy, or
-tryn actually is OP.

If he's OP then why can't I do that? I mean, Tryndamere is practically the only champ I play. I have only played about 600 or so games of LoL, but I reckon about 400+ are with him. I've been told I'm a pretty good Tryn player by people that are -on the whole- much better players than I am. I understand the whole gambit, I just explained it to you. Yet.. I can't make it happen. Why?

Are you remembering pre-patch experiences here, or have new data? Please provide video footage, I have LoL Replay installed, and would actually watch your WHOLE GAME to bring better discussion.
Would you like to watch a few of mine?

Quote:
Poppy's ult is nice yes, but she doesn't hit as high as a Trynd and she also can still die by 1 champion. Yes, you can put the ult on the tank or whoever you think is the smartest. But atleast she can still get damaged. And you can easily run from Poppy while she ults. So you can get 1 kill in her ult and then you kinda have to retreat. Oh also, doesn't Tryndamere have a pretty short ult cd? 'Cause I see him use it in every fight. While Poppy got a pretty long cd. Owell whatever I doubt that Riot listens to players anyways. I'm sure they test the champions themselfs and give these dumbass nerfs or buffs.
I don't want to argue about Poppy but I brought it up. So I'll post once here on it, you can reply, then I'm done on that subject.
All the smart Poppy's that I know and have seen use their ult on the champion that is fleeing from combat. They never come back to try deal damage. Therefore, the ult lasts the entire 6 seconds, and pure immunity.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone with faster run speed than Poppy, so the only way you escape is high resilience (survive the entire six seconds and be somewhere safe by then).
Yes, she can usually only get one kill with it, great point there. I've seen double kills, but only by skilled Poppy's or situations where both champs were low to begin with.


You know, you've been pretty good about this discussion, so I welcome you back for more.


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Bluebehir

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Senior Member

07-30-2011

But I realise how derailed this thread has become. I originally intended to discuss the Bloodlust ability.
I want a way for the ability to retain synergy but bring back meaningful decisions to Tryndamere's game.
That way the champion can be balanced but still be fun.


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Soren Kaleth

Senior Member

07-31-2011

You know honestly with the loss of Crit status they really shot themselves in the foot by also decreasing the heal. You think they would have made the heal worth wanting to consume your crit, or be necessary to survive. However, the way things are its like another passive ability.

As far as the AP people are concerned Id rather not waste another 2 grand in gold to heal a whole 200 some odd more HP. Its cost to benefit ratio is not worth trading another item for it.


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