Tanking Garen, drawing out the full Might of Demacia - "Fear not, I'm coming"

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Apokalupsis

Senior Member

04-30-2010

....what are "MS" quints?


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Taenshi

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Senior Member

04-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
....what are "MS" quints?
Movement Speed, if you get 3 you go 4.5% faster. Team with a Janna and you will be going 7.5% (assuming they stack like that) faster.


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WulfDragoon

Member

04-30-2010

Wow .. I was thinking of writing down a Garren guide... just because I see so many people not using his skills correctly. BUT after reading your guide, I realize that there really is nothing more to add.


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turtlejay

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Senior Member

04-30-2010

Cool Story Bro.


Okay, I stopped reading once you named the builds like we were playing WoW or something. I think I've finally nailed how I like playing Garen, and it is not at all like you have built him so. . .

I like to chase things, and Garen is fun to chase with. Ghost+Q+thatcoolnewsword=death to most squishes.

One thing I haven't seen most folks bring up is how lame his passive is. .6% health regen is pretty small. Esp after staying at the rear for 7 seconds not getting hit.

Jay


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EchoRex

Senior Member

04-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carados View Post
Doesn't that rely, on you know, the other team not being bad and seeing you coming and walking in the other direction?

That's actually possibly the worst initiation I've even seen. You can't reliably initiate when the other team doesn't want to fight.
Still fact.

This is seriously one of the most misleading into complete uselessness guides posted to date.


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Captain Shin

Senior Member

04-30-2010

I like how people can just walk in, tell you they haven't bothered going through all of what what you wrote, and then proceed to diss you. That's free speech at it's finest.
Look, seriously, I think i'm missing something here. If you go on the assumption that the enemy team to be willing to fight for you to make a succesful initiate...
Right off the bat, that strikes me as a flawed notion. If the enemy team is WILLING to fight, then at Higher levels, that means they are in formation, have all their ultimates up, and their own initiates ready and/or an escape route planned. This is THE WORST POSSIBLE CASE SCENARIO for you. This is a fight in which you will need either wait for them to initiate, with the risk of them getting a successful initiate, or to initiate yourself, with the risk of you making a bad initiate. Even if you are successful, you still have to outplay them as a team to win. A good initiate is PRECISELY when the enemy does NOT want to fight e.g. Pushing the lane against an ashe just after she's wasted her arrow.
Now let's assume for ONE minute, you are correct, and that the enemy WILL KNOW what you're about and run away the moment they see you. If that's the case, then only Invisibles/Global Teleporters make good initiates. Alistair initiates by stunning the tanks and knocking them away. Garren initiates by using his Slow Immunity and Damage reduction skill to dive for the enemy, and silence the enemy squishies. Both of them have a very clear modus operandi. In fact, if you are holding 2v2, and Alistair walks in, you know exactly what's he's going to try to do - Push the turret, and stun/knock you into his teamates if you try to stop him. So, you're smart, you run. The turret dies. Alistair didn't get to stun you/get kills because you ran, so he's a bad initiate. Well, he could have come from behind, or flashed into you with the stun, but on high elo, you will probably have wards for the former, and cleanse for the latter.
Now, unless you mean something else altogether, this is how I understand this "the team is willing to fight" statement, and I stand by my playstyle.


That being said, i'm tired of people coming out and telling me how stupid I am for daring to suggest survivability - My two cents on Rushing Youmu on Garren? Here's a Cool story for all you dpsing bros - You spot a Ryze farming alone, come around him in the brush, then charge in with Ghost/Youmu/Q. However, this a high elo game, so you are in fact sitting right on top of a ward, and there's a shen sitting in the brush in case Ryze doesn't Pulverise you and your precious DPS to oblivion in one burst the moment you step in range. I have played against and with well over 100 garens at this point - for every one DPS Garren that succesfully racked kills and went godlike, at least 3 Failed and lost, or got carried by their team. Even then, Those godlike DPS garren typically got a Leviathan before getting Youmu, WHICH I WHOLEHEARTEDLY ADVOCATE BTW, not to mention having exceptional team mates to keep the heat off him.
When it comes to glass cannons, DPS Garren is good, but he still falls behind the likes of Shaco went it comes to ganking, to AP Cho Gath when it comes to burst/disable/execute, to Twitch when it comes to Massive DPS, and TF when it comes to positioning.
As a DPS, you are good, but nothing to write home about. As a tank, you can potentially sponge as much damage as Alistair, while potentially dishing out more damage than him at the expense of hard disables. If you think the hard disable is better than the damage, then by all means, go for it. Personally, I don't think so.
On the passive being bad... Well, it's almost twice the unique passive boost on Force of Nature. And, given time, it will, by itself, heal you from 1% to 100% HP over 2.5 Minutes or so. Unimpressive? Well, at low levels, when your innate healing is nothing to write home about, definitely. In the late game, when your 3k HP means you're healing AN EXTRA 18+ HP per second, just from this, it's that much better. It's not heart of tarasque, but hell, this isn't dota, so 0.6% is as good as it gets. Of course, you'll only benefit from that boosted heal if you've gotten yourself a few life boosting items or two, which is one of the reasons why you want to go tank with Garren - with more life, and spirit visage, you can get a lot of mileage out of your passive... if you are a DPS with minimal life items, you are right on the passive being useless.


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Dispersify

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Senior Member

04-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Shin View Post
I like how people can just walk in, tell you they haven't bothered going through all of what what you wrote, and then proceed to diss you. That's free speech at it's finest.
Look, seriously, I think i'm missing something here. If you go on the assumption that the enemy team to be willing to fight for you to make a succesful initiate...
Right off the bat, that strikes me as a flawed notion. If the enemy team is WILLING to fight, then at Higher levels, that means they are in formation, have all their ultimates up, and their own initiates ready and/or an escape route planned. This is THE WORST POSSIBLE CASE SCENARIO for you. This is a fight in which you will need either wait for them to initiate, with the risk of them getting a successful initiate, or to initiate yourself, with the risk of you making a bad initiate. Even if you are successful, you still have to outplay them as a team to win. A good initiate is PRECISELY when the enemy does NOT want to fight e.g. Pushing the lane against an ashe just after she's wasted her arrow.
Now let's assume for ONE minute, you are correct, and that the enemy WILL KNOW what you're about and run away the moment they see you. If that's the case, then only Invisibles/Global Teleporters make good initiates. Alistair initiates by stunning the tanks and knocking them away. Garren initiates by using his Slow Immunity and Damage reduction skill to dive for the enemy, and silence the enemy squishies. Both of them have a very clear modus operandi. In fact, if you are holding 2v2, and Alistair walks in, you know exactly what's he's going to try to do - Push the turret, and stun/knock you into his teamates if you try to stop him. So, you're smart, you run. The turret dies. Alistair didn't get to stun you/get kills because you ran, so he's a bad initiate. Well, he could have come from behind, or flashed into you with the stun, but on high elo, you will probably have wards for the former, and cleanse for the latter.
Now, unless you mean something else altogether, this is how I understand this "the team is willing to fight" statement, and I stand by my playstyle.


That being said, i'm tired of people coming out and telling me how stupid I am for daring to suggest survivability - My two cents on Rushing Youmu on Garren? Here's a Cool story for all you dpsing bros - You spot a Ryze farming alone, come around him in the brush, then charge in with Ghost/Youmu/Q. However, this a high elo game, so you are in fact sitting right on top of a ward, and there's a shen sitting in the brush in case Ryze doesn't Pulverise you and your precious DPS to oblivion in one burst the moment you step in range. I have played against and with well over 100 garens at this point - for every one DPS Garren that succesfully racked kills and went godlike, at least 3 Failed and lost, or got carried by their team. Even then, Those godlike DPS garren typically got a Leviathan before getting Youmu, WHICH I WHOLEHEARTEDLY ADVOCATE BTW, not to mention having exceptional team mates to keep the heat off him.
When it comes to glass cannons, DPS Garren is good, but he still falls behind the likes of Shaco went it comes to ganking, to AP Cho Gath when it comes to burst/disable/execute, to Twitch when it comes to Massive DPS, and TF when it comes to positioning.
As a DPS, you are good, but nothing to write home about. As a tank, you can potentially sponge as much damage as Alistair, while potentially dishing out more damage than him at the expense of hard disables. If you think the hard disable is better than the damage, then by all means, go for it. Personally, I don't think so.
On the passive being bad... Well, it's almost twice the unique passive boost on Force of Nature. And, given time, it will, by itself, heal you from 1% to 100% HP over 2.5 Minutes or so. Unimpressive? Well, at low levels, when your innate healing is nothing to write home about, definitely. In the late game, when your 3k HP means you're healing AN EXTRA 18+ HP per second, just from this, it's that much better. It's not heart of tarasque, but hell, this isn't dota, so 0.6% is as good as it gets. Of course, you'll only benefit from that boosted heal if you've gotten yourself a few life boosting items or two, which is one of the reasons why you want to go tank with Garren - with more life, and spirit visage, you can get a lot of mileage out of your passive... if you are a DPS with minimal life items, you are right on the passive being useless.
The whole "DPS Glasscannon Garens will die quickly" and "Garen is bad at initiating because the enemy team has the choice to fight or retreat when he runs in" thing is what makes me suggest him as a hybrid tankish DPS in my guide. Yes, he definitely needs survival, but if he gets only that, he will only be a liability to the team, stealing random kills with his ultimate that the DPS carries would need more, his only CC being a single target silence to whom he actually has to get to, and the fact that what I consider his best skill, Judgement, becomes completely useless.

I personally think Garen is a DPS carry who can semi-tank for the team before he starts ramping his damage up, which is why I build survivability first. He doesn't have any true CC skills, and in team fights he can essentially be ignored by the enemy team as they focus down his allies before ganging up on him; Garen will most likely be able to silence a max of two to three times per team fight spamming Courage while he isn't even being targeted, which doesn't sound very efficient to me.


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Captain Shin

Senior Member

05-01-2010

And here i was hoping this would NOT turn into Tank VS DPS debate, and off I go starting just that.
Ahum - For the most part, I have been actively testing these builds out, and trying to balance tankiness vs damage.
Regarding the "you can get away from Garren" statement, a lot of people are forgetting youmu/randuin, which in my builds you will eventually get. One allows you to close in for, given your huge defensive stats, a 4-5 seconds slow on the squishies. That's a big initiating factor with Garen. Lately, i've factored this in and have experimented with new builds were i upgrade heart to it post Merc/Avarice.
I advocate Heart/Avarice Early game mostly because this allows you to stick to enemy for the full duration of the spin, knowing you will last through all of it, and still have enough life left to silence/judgement, and walk away.
For Garen to work as initiate, he needs to be beef enough to make killing him an "all-in" decision, but still be enough of a threat factor to the enemy team for them to go for the burst. My three item builds all feature either direct, or indirect ways of boosting damage.
When going for a quick finish, well you get Youmu first, then follow through with tank-ish chasing items [like Mallet/Phantom] and Tanking DPS items [Atma's, which gives damage AND armor].
With the Warmog based build, a Atma's impact on a full-stack warmog is a 2.5x increase in your raw [Usually, you jump from 100ish to 200 ish, and get a big boost in crit] damage output, which is typically enough to give CCers reason to focus you. As for attack speed, well, you get that out of Youmu.
For the balanced build, I throw in a Sunfire - this allows you to deal considerable damage to nukers for those drawn out seconds where you spam courage in front of them. While spinning, you will typically be doing damage comparable to rammus [in fact, in many ways, the Team Diving strategy i advocate is similar to what Rammus does].


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CamYo

Senior Member

05-01-2010

nice guide. do you think this is a good item build as tank?

1. warmogs(after buy boots 1)
2. leviathan
3. upgrade boots to merc threads
4. either GA or aegis
5-6 either spirit visage, frozen heart, banshee, frozen mallet, starks, thornmail, omen or sunfire cape(s)


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Myrnodyn

Senior Member

05-01-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by CamYo View Post
nice guide. do you think this is a good item build as tank?

1. warmogs(after buy boots 1)
2. leviathan
3. upgrade boots to merc threads
4. either GA or aegis
5-6 either spirit visage, frozen heart, banshee, frozen mallet, starks, thornmail, omen or sunfire cape(s)
Your early game will suck with this build, and frankly I've experienced Garen needs to have a decent early game at least before he can own in the mid game. Having said that, I won't claim to know enough about Garen at this point to know if it would or wouldn't work. A LITTLE bit of damage is advisable early on though.