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Mana Regen Runes For Ashe?

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congalong

Senior Member

05-01-2010

Quote:
Drimascus:
Don't waste rune slots with mana regen. Ashe doesn't consume massive amounts of mana as she is mainly an auto attack physical DPS. Spamming volley is a bad use of your mana pool as your physical DPS should be out-gaining your volley by far. In addition, your volley doesn't proc on hit effects of your items.

If you absolutely need mana regen, buy a Meki's as your first item.


Just no. No.

When an Ashe gets a golem buff she can keep whole teams at bay with her volley and it's short CD.

The point of mana regen as JustDavid said is so you avoid needing mana items such as chalice for volley spam. Also is useful if you have casters or people who need blue over you such as annie/fiddle.

If you aren't spamming volley to farm/harass as much as you can, you're a bad Ashe.


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mylegbig

Senior Member

05-01-2010

Quote:
Pwnacus Maximus:
NO. do NOT listen to him. save your money, so once you hit level twenty you have enough money for a full set of runes. the benefit from having runes at your level is negligible.


Actually it's better to get a set of tier 1 runes first. They're dirt cheap, and saving up to buy a full set of tier 3 runes takes forever, gimping you from spending IP on champs you can have fun with. Fun > bonus stats.


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mylegbig

Senior Member

05-01-2010

Quote:
Drimascus:
Don't waste rune slots with mana regen. Ashe doesn't consume massive amounts of mana as she is mainly an auto attack physical DPS. Spamming volley is a bad use of your mana pool as your physical DPS should be out-gaining your volley by far. In addition, your volley doesn't proc on hit effects of your items.

If you absolutely need mana regen, buy a Meki's as your first item.


No, Ashe should be spamming volley. Until she's heavily farmed her chief uses for the team come from her ability to stun with her ult and slow with her volley. Ashe shouldn't be getting items with on hit effects. Straight damage is what she needs.

And while I used to get Meki as my first item, I later realized that it's **** on her. Mana crystal, immediately built into Catalyst (utility and survivability), is much better.


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Psychlops

Senior Member

05-01-2010

Quote:
congalong:
I use 18x mana reg/level. armor pen reds and armor pen quints/ms quints/flat hp quints depending how I'm feeling and if I'm soloing or not.

oh and Psychlops is bad.
any time you want to lane mid against me solo I'll out farm you and kill you and you'll fall behind in gold/items and be owned. 18 mana regen per level won't help you if you fall behind the opposing teams carry.

ashe should definitely be spamming volley either eating creeps or pushing back champs but you don;t need 18 rune slots for this.


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Bonegnasher

Senior Member

05-01-2010

Quote:
Drimascus:
Don't waste rune slots with mana regen. Ashe doesn't consume massive amounts of mana as she is mainly an auto attack physical DPS. Spamming volley is a bad use of your mana pool as your physical DPS should be out-gaining your volley by far. In addition, your volley doesn't proc on hit effects of your items.

If you absolutely need mana regen, buy a Meki's as your first item.


There are so many things wrong with your logic... First, the blue runes that are physical damage have terrible stats. Getting blue DPS runes is WAY more of a waste of rune slots than getting blue mana regen runes. Mana regen means more volleys (never a bad thing) and also helps ensure that she has enough mana to cast her ult at early levels (which does consume massive amounts of Ashe's mana at level 6).

Second, you are incorrect in or assessment of volley. Volley is NOT a bad use of your mana pool, and comparing it to your physical DPS is like comparing apples and oranges. The main purpose of volley is two-fold: last hitting creeps and harrassing/snaring your opponent. The beauty is that it does both at the same time. It has longer range than your physical attack and it does more damage, but its primarily used for its utility, not its overall DPS. Also, I believe volley is affected by armor penetration, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Third, the whole point of buying mana regen runes is so that you don't have to waste your money on mana regen items. As a physical DPS carry, Ashe wants to get the biggest, baddest DPS items, and she wants to get them ASAP. For example, when I play Ashe, my second item after Doran's Shield is a BF Sword. The HP, armor and health regen from Doran's allows me to stand up to enemy harrassment, letting me farm longer without leaving the lane. My blue mana regen runes allow me to harrass the enemy back with volley and still have enough mana to ult when I hit 6. Never having to leave the lane means that you can farm your big items VERY quickly.

tl;dr: If you're playing Ashe, DO NOT WASTE MONEY ON MANA/MANA REGEN ITEMS. That's what your blue/yellow rune slots are for.


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EchoRex

Senior Member

05-01-2010

Eh... The only gold you should ever "waste" on mana regen is for a Chalice during mid game, this is the only truly viable item because it gives some much needed magic resist, and also increases the efficacy of your mana regen runes and masteries.


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congalong

Senior Member

05-01-2010

Quote:
Psychlops:
any time you want to lane mid against me solo I'll out farm you and kill you and you'll fall behind in gold/items and be owned. 18 mana regen per level won't help you if you fall behind the opposing teams carry.

ashe should definitely be spamming volley either eating creeps or pushing back champs but you don;t need 18 rune slots for this.


Right if you're ashe how are you going to supply your mana while I'm spamming volley? Going to waste money on a chalice? Because even if you do, I can get one and still out spam you. Or I can go mana crystal first->catalyst without wasting the gold for chalice. So tell me again how you're going to counter volley spam in an Ashe 1v1 situation because I won't need to buy any mana regen items while you'll need to to keep up with me.

Flat mana is never worth it but according to you they should invest in it.


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Mr Wang Fire

Member

05-01-2010

Psychlops is just a troll or someone who doesn't understand the great power that is Mana Regen/Level runes. I love these runes and will NEVER go without them again. Getting a chalice on Ashe instead of a AD item is stupid which is why you get MP5/Level to focus AD.


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Psychlops

Senior Member

05-01-2010

Quote:
congalong:
Right if you're ashe how are you going to supply your mana while I'm spamming volley? Going to waste money on a chalice? Because even if you do, I can get one and still out spam you. Or I can go mana crystal first->catalyst without wasting the gold for chalice. So tell me again how you're going to counter volley spam in an Ashe 1v1 situation because I won't need to buy any mana regen items while you'll need to to keep up with me.

Flat mana is never worth it but according to you they should invest in it.

Actually the intent of my post was that you should definitely invest in runes prior to being level 20. My position on which runes is based upon my opinion of what works best.

You might out spam me but I will drive you off the creep wave by doing more damage to you. Thus I will last hit more creeps and out farm you plus possibly kill you if you push because my ashe will have more armor/hp/dodge than yours and I will be very very close on the volley.

How about we just do some math.

I'm going to base my math on this supposition I'm not married to it and I'm open to more opinions: If you return to base on average about once every 5-7 minutes in a 50 minute game that's about 7-10 trips to base. If you get killed a couple times in there it obviously adds trips and cuts down on average time out of base. I would say that I'm usually in the base 10-15 times per game but that's just a guess and possibly low.

In the blue 9 x .08 per level = .72 per level mana every 5 seconds or about 8.5 mana a minute per level.

In the gold 9 x .1 per level = .9 per level mana every 5 seconds per level. about 10 mana/level/minute.

The golds are best obviously but lets focus on the blue because gold has other choices for ashe, whereas other than cooldown blue doesn't have a lot of choices for ashe.

You probably make level 3 in about 5 minutes of game time maybe level 4 so the mana regen quickly becomes pretty significant: something like 80 mana regen in the first 5 minutes. Seems pretty obvious that this will swamp the flat runes performance wise. I stand corrected.

The flat mana runes will give you 102 more mana each trip. So somewhere between 1000 and possibly 2000 mana for the game. This will be an advantage at the lowest levels when it's most important to be able to stay in the lane but after looking at the math I can see that the mana regen runes must be pretty strong mid to late game. My gut feeling is that 9 blues would be more than enough regen for 95% of your "trips". The Seals would be better spent on dodge or health (yellows out perform all others in, health, defense categories (dodge/armor/resist) and mana regen) but glyphs only excel at ability stuff like cool downs and ability power which isn't ashes focus. cool down is ok for the arrow and slightly faster volley so maybe half blue and half gold regen with some dodge and cool down might be a good fit.

Compared to mana per level runes 1.42 x 9 per level. or 12.8/level = 13-230 per trip.

The increased mana total runes also get a benefit from some masteries like expanded mind but this won't be a huge number, 5% of 230 is only 10.6 more mana.

The mana regen runes also are over valued by my math because I'm giving you credit for regen even when you're full but I do see the value in them and after looking at the math I would have to say they're more powerful than either of the other mana choices (flat mana, or +total per level).

At the end of the day I still wouldn't recommend 18 mana regen per level runes but 5-10 of them sure looks strong. Arp or crit chance in reds and either cool down in blue or health/dodge in yellow to round things out.

In any event, my original point is that you should definitely have at least tier1 runes, they're cheap and way more valuable than an empty slot.

After doing the math I would probably have to say that the flat mana runes are very poor in comparison to regen and need a buff.


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congalong

Senior Member

05-01-2010

@ above

With mana crystal, this is how I go back to base,

1, catalyst + boots
2. brutalizer
3. pickaxe
4. IE

More or less if I'm farming better or being heavily harassed which in your case, you're still going back to base more.

Explain to me how you're doing more damage to me? You don't have damage runes. Volley spam doesn't mean you aren't taking damage. I'm using it to chip away at your life every time I spam it. And, since it doesn't reset Ashe's passive, I can also crit you as well and attack you. You make it sound like I'm just going to spam volley and not harass you.