Garen - The Tank?

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McRofls

Senior Member

09-10-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carados View Post
Let's do this Socratically.

What does a tank do? What is their role, and their job?
I feel that a tank is a hard to kill champion that attempts to distract the enemy team to get targeted/absorb damage which allows for their team to start the fight at an advantage.

Sure, he doesn't have a taunt that focuses people to target him, but Garen most certainly catches aggro. His Whirlwind is very good at catching people's attention. He also takes very little damage, and has a silence. I'd classify him as an offensive tank when built as such.


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Arcades79

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Senior Member

10-05-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by theIatola View Post
All the other team has to do to counter this strat is run away. Garen has no way of choosing where the fight happens. If Garen is going to be your teams tank. Your team has to have a lot of CC to be able to hold the fight in that location. Like an Annie Tibbers stun and a veigar stun ring, which at that point you should just be DPS to finish off the stunned legends.
Frozen Mallet is actually quite effective in "choosing where the fight happens" for priority targets. Once Garen locks on, its really hard to out run him since he can clear counter slows with Judgment and speed up with Decisive Strike. Granted, its not AOE, but you can lock down the opposing team's carry or front line DPS fairly easily.


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RyZenLight

Junior Member

11-21-2010

Tank-garen is what i say to be the best build for him. I've seen lots of garen using infinity edge build, they don't last one minute in clashes. With a tank build, u can initiate while having your teammates spam damage. They can't ignore you if you have two sunfires and atma's impaler. And they can't kill you with skills alone with force of nature and warmogs.. don't know why the recommended items for him sucks.


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Psyllocke

Junior Member

12-15-2010

I play Garen as a Off-Tank/DPS, clearly he has no fight location control, but he can soak up huge amounts of damage if built correctly, and still be a deciding factor in the outcome of the fight. Of course, have your main tank go in first to initiate, and with the way i build garen i will always build a frozen mallet, survivability, with extra damage, and it gives him a limited ability to do some tanking. The Main Tank build for Garen should always contain a frozen mallet, and if you want even more control get an Omen too, as the active effect is nice for slowing other champions as well. As he hits Enemy Champions, obviously, they are slowed, giving him a little more control over where the fight may happen, and keeping it there as much as possible. As long as he stays on one enemy champ, generally from my own experience, that champ wont get very far, making game temporarily a 4v5. If the other team wants their friend to live, obviously they will go to help if the kill isnt instantaneous due to a 5v1. But the game will temporarily be in your own teams favor.


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Striking Dragon

Member

02-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo7 View Post
Garen is not a tank.

A tank is a champion that is targeted and requires survivability because they have an ability package that forces the location of a fight. If a champion does not have any abilities to force a fight, they are not a tank. If a champion does not have any abilities to survive, they are not a tank.

Why do people insist upon slapping survivability items on a DPS champion then call it a tank? It is complete idiocy to rely upon the other team to do exactly as you want: target the person who is no threat (which a tanked up Garen is, just like a tanked up Mundo), and stay there for the uselessly item build player's team to kill them.

Relying upon playing against terribad opponents is not making this champion a tank.

This fails in every sense of being relevant or significant in a team fight or gank.
_
I love Garen, as a tank player he is not superior, but is a tank. A tank does not force any locations in any games, tanks go to the target and kill or die. With proper support anything is possible, but with Garen and a couple other champions they make the job a whole lot easier.


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biomorph

Senior Member

02-05-2011

I love it how your attached image shows that you get a positive K/D with tankish build and negative with DPS build. this is not surprising because it has long been known that the only viable build(s) for Garen are of tankish nature. This does NOT make a tank. Your stats also betray the tank premise. Tanks do not and should not have that many kills compared to deaths and especially assists, your carries and nukers should have them. Not to generalize but tanks stats are often a multitude of 1/2/4 ish. And I should perhaps justify why I claim that.
I play rammus a lot and in stead of focusing getting kills I powerball in someones face taunt and lets my team kill them. Even if I could kill them it is best if my mate(s) tristana, ryze, shaco or who ever gets the kill so I'll gladly pass it up. Of course if my team has got plenty kills and I spot a chance to snag one I will not be shy to do so. Garen does not work like that at all. All he can do is get in peoples faces, cause some have IF the enemy will indulge him, let his team do most of the work and then kill steal with his ultimate. Garen unlike real tanks needs to be fed (more than many others) in order to be worth anything at all.
TL;DR: Garen lacks all the aspects of a tank(save the durability) and thus he is not and never will be one.

Garen has his place but he is neither a tank nor dps but something in between that and the onlt reason that he is viable is because of his kill steal ultimate. But not to be too rude to the uber gay pretty boi he is good at cleaning up remains after his team has done all the work for him because he is a pain to kill.


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biomorph

Senior Member

02-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Striking Dragon View Post
A tank does not force any locations in any games,
That is EXACTLY what a tank should do in LoL. Your claim goes against any "good definition" of tanks in LoL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Striking Dragon View Post
but with Garen and a couple other champions they make the job a whole lot easier.
Garen relies on his team to be able to do anything at all. On his own he can do nothing against anyone unless they are stupid enough to feed him on purpose.

But let me just say at the same time that this does not mean that Garen does not have his place in teams.


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Striking Dragon

Member

02-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by biomorph View Post
That is EXACTLY what a tank should do in LoL. Your claim goes against any "good definition" of tanks in LoL.


Garen relies on his team to be able to do anything at all. On his own he can do nothing against anyone unless they are stupid enough to feed him on purpose.

But let me just say at the same time that this does not mean that Garen does not have his place in teams.

Not at all, I see no arguement that is believable otherwise. I will continue to fight 2 on 1 and sometimes 3 on 1; and have the battle end in one of them dying and me surviving. With a healer tagging along all three will die, I love Garen and feel mastery. Just because I took a ridiculous amount of time to master and found an awesome build I can work with is no right to state I am wrong other then through sheer ignorance. There are some people certain champions are just not for and then their are champions that are made for certain player types. Garen and Healers are my forte. So I am sticking with them for continuing mastery, See you on the field of battle :P

-I also love his fast solo wins against bots...haha ttyl...


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biomorph

Senior Member

02-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Striking Dragon View Post
Not at all,
Not at all ... what exactly?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Striking Dragon View Post
I will continue to fight 2 on 1 and sometimes 3 on 1;
Of course you will, but you are et the mercy of your opponents if they want to fight you (excluding summoner spells like ghost etc). If they do not want to fight you then you can want to fight all you want but it's not up to you. Fighting against Garen goes a little something like this: Can I/we kill Garen as of now? If yes then kill him, if no back off. What can Garen do about that? Nothing. So I insist that if you want to kill with Garen then you need enemies who are stupid enough and LET you do that to them, or, you steal some kills in team fights which is what Garen does best.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Striking Dragon View Post
Garen and Healers are my forte. So I am sticking with them for continuing mastery, See you on the field of battle :P
By all means do so, but just because you can pile on kills does not mean you are a tank which is the key point I was trying to make. If you rush in people will ingore you and smash your team and you can get a few kills because nobody is focusing you. An Amumu, Rammus, Shen or what not can and will not let that happen. They will get in their face taunt/stun and be able to determine how the battle will turn out. Garen has to wait and see what others decide on his behalf. That is why he is not a tank, not by a long shot.


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Raddon

Member

02-06-2011

I am a Garen player since 1, I have played him every possible way before and after the patch that changed judgement mechanics and had unique sunfire cape change, here are my thoughts:

CRIT Garen: before change judgement AD ratio was so crappy going AD was not an excellent choice you'd better focus on armor penetration, but since his base damage took a part in judgement damage and thus could crit early/mid game crit was a good choice, but late game judgement just didnt have the scalling potential to do enough damage and the better choice was go tanky and do only moderate damage.
after change crit is useless until late game since only bonus AD can crit and thus criting is useless before getting a good AD pool.

TANK Garen: before changes garen could stack 2/3 sunfires and add good damage to his judgement range, because base judgement damage without no AD items was better garen could pull of good damage while still being extremly hard to kill, garen tank could go into the middle of 3/4 people, pick a squishy, kill him and get out alive. Adding a late game Atmas/IE would boost that potential even more.
Right now garen tank can only have one sunfire, his judgement does crappy damage, and only a late game atmas/IE can fix that, but rarely games last to 6th item.
None of those were a proper tank in the terms of forcing people to fight, more usefull for those situations where enemy are camping under there turret, Tank garen could initiate there and take turret fire like nothing was going on and kill one squishy on his own.

PURE AD Garen: before changes this was not good unless completly fed, early game judgement base damage was good on its own, but late game stacking AD just didnt get you enough damage for the money spent.
after changes garen starts to do huge damage after getting some AD items, but if not built a little tanky he can be killed relativly fast.

My opinion on Garen atm is he should be played as an offtank, enough damage to hurt, enough defense to survive. I recommend MR/Armor per lvl seals and glyphs, almost 30 of each will help you survive late game, I also think some HP is a must, Sunfire for heavy physical teams, Mallet for mixed or more magic teams. Cleanse + mercs + ghost is a must, garen has no escape and if CCed caught and outnumbered he is dead.
As for damage I believe pure damage/armor pen is the best until late game, brutalizer/BFs/last whisper/Sword of Occult. And after you get the damage and tankyness you can go for some crit, atmas, BF to IE, brutalizer to yommus, but imo never buy crit before having 150+ bonus AD.

But more important even than items is team composition, if your "tank" is a morde or a mundo and your best CC is a single target stun in team fights you will never be able to get in to judgement range without being killed, not if the other team is half decent. Having people like Amumu, Shen, Rammus, Malphite, Kennen, Morgana, Veigar etc is highly recommended.
And more, even if you have a proper tank, but only have one ranged champs, and the other two are for ex Soraka and Yi dont pick Garen, you'll have to lane with somebody with no range damage, facing most likely somebody who has plenty of it and end up harrassed into hugging your turret and denied to farm properly. Laning with somebody like Lux, Zilean, Sivir, Ashe, Cath etc is highly recommended.