2k ELO tryn: @Morello & @RIOT: why NERF tryn?

First Riot Post
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Kog

Senior Member

07-26-2011

posting in a zerg semen thread.

(I agree, btw)


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Rize Up Rev

Senior Member

07-26-2011

please someone go find the gp change thread... its the same thing over when they changed gp everyone cried nerf nerf nerf .... numbers numbers numbers..... where is gp right now in all elo????????? nough said


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Styx117

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Senior Member

07-26-2011

lol omg omg gp is so nerfed wth riot......2 weeks later, omg wtf fotm y the fk did u do this to gp now hes op

rinse repeat


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Rize Up Rev

Senior Member

07-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Styx117 View Post
lol omg omg gp is so nerfed wth riot......2 weeks later, omg wtf fotm y the fk did u do this to gp now hes op

rinse repeat
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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TofuShift

Senior Member

07-26-2011

I actually just read the patch notes and 35% crit @lv 1 assuming you have a full fury gage.. that is preeettttyyyy good. We'll have to see how it works out.. the crazy bonus AD from bloodlust could be overpowering early which is why he was good, and if you opened boots or dorans shield with crit runes you could be a real hero.

It seems like his jungle is almost nerfed since you don't have the dmg from bloodlust but meh I never jungled trynd much... Will have to see tomorrow!


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Xyltin

Senior Member

07-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
You underestimate the power of +35% crit chance at full health and free Spinning Slash + Mocking Shout. And healing with zero Fury.

Seriously. Try before you whine.

Tryndamere no longer has crit damage as a stat. Forget his old passive and old Q. Now read the patch notes for the passive and Q.
35% with full fury. But you need your fury to heal yourself early.
That way the healing got buffed ealy a little (no more crits needed), but you dont get as much DMG, crit and crit dmg. You do have to attack more often (every 10 sec) to hold your fury up instead of the old 15 sec duration of the buff and you also heal a lot less late game (what is ok for the values).
But why a longer CD? We get free healing, but the value is so low, and you cant decide if you want to use fury and how much. So when you heal you will always cripple your crit chance.
It is free if you have 0 fury and you do have 0 fury after you healed (then 12 sec CD) or you do nothing (what shouldnt happen).

Also the crit dmg bonus was removed.

W: 25 HP costs are nothing.

E: The removed HP costs are nice, but the dmg reduction is hard. It buffs late game dmg but nerfs early game (from 40+30 to 60+0 on lvl 1 spin).

And nothing about his ulti generating Fury now instead of stack? Can you confirm that it still gives you fury? OR was that removed?

In the end we get a 5% stronger early game (cheaper heal, easier stack gains, no HP costs), but we lose some AD, we build our stacks slower ina 1vX gank cause we need more crits (before you were at around 70% crit chance with only the 10% from your passive). We also lose a lot of crit dmg (what was really important for his high dmg after reaching lvl 6).

But in the end game we lose a lot of strength:

Before:
10-50% crit chance based on HP
+40 AD, +36% crit dmg (stacks that where easily gained after reaching lvl 6)
100-400 HP healed (1 crit or last hit needed)

Now:
0-35% crit based on fury
+25-60 AD based on HP
70-300 HP healed

The -10% crit early is ok for the fury and some extra free AD without stacks and no HP costs, but why nerfing the 40% to 35%? the value was not only ok, but very important in his item build.The AD bonus with low HP is nice, but he loses a lot of AD for his initial attack. So it looks very even. You dont live very long after your ulti and with the lower heal and the longer CD you will be an easier target after your ulti.
+20 to -15 AD is a valid change.

-36% crit dmg. That is a realy hard nerf, but you wanted to reduce his dmg late game. That is a 12% dmg nerf (got around 300% crit dmg and a 100% crit chance). So valid as long as you would buff his early game also significantly. But that wasnt done in the same way. It ws an early game buff, but not as much as you nerfed his late game.

A 15% crit nerf together with a 12% AA dmg nerf and a -100 heal nerf, also increased CD on Q and spinning slash dmg nerf till you reach over +150 AD (210 with the +60 AD) from items. Also the dmg is now physical and so it gets reduced a lot more than before.

1. Increase Spinning Slash dmg to 60/95/130/165/200.
Increasing the dmg so that it really scales and that it is a buff and not a nerf.
That means you will get more dmg after reaching around +100 AD from items (+160 with low HP). But you still need to be nearly dead to be that way, it will still be a nerf in dmg, and the dmg is still reduced by the high armor values. But you also dont lose the HP now. But the old HP costs werent that much and when hitting more than one target the HP costs compared to the dmg went to 0.

2. Reduce Spinning Slash CD to 12/11/10/9/8 sec.
It was once written in the patch notes that the CD was reduced to 8 sec from 9 but never done. Trynda is a high risk champ with his mechanics and so he needs the fast spin to get in and out. He can be easily slowed and his CC only works when the enemy runs away and not when he gets chased. He needs the CD.

3. Change passive to 0-40% based on fury.
The 5% extra crit chance wil help you early and late to have more stable crits. No real valid point to do it. Only to buff him a little.

4. Reduce Bloodlust CD to 12-8 sec and reduce the healing without Fury to 28/36/44/52/60.
Trynda needs to be able to heal himself efore and after activating his ulti in many situations. But cause he dropps down very fast, he needs a CD that is around 5 + 4 sec. 12 sec would be ok if his ulti would still have a 6 sec duration and he has some extra CDR.
This spell is very important to have controll over your HP, crit and extra AD, and so you have to use it on a low CD sometimes. Giving it a high CD is like giving Vlads Q a 6 sec CD. A spell that is important for controlling the champions values and resources has to be on a lower CD or else you will lose this control.

I will try him today for sure, but I'm sure that he doesnt feel really strong and good for his team (but definitely better than before). He has to jungle in the current meta and there are a lot stronger champs. He will have problems holding up with them (Udyr, WW, Cho, Nunu, ...) and he doesnt have such a good CC as they have to gank.

He will get a better spot in top elo but not in tournaments.
His build will be more flexible early on, but still the same late game.
He will be able to lane now if needed (he couldnt really lane before. You had to rely on your 40% crit chance early and that you will crit 2 times in a row).
His jungle will be a little faster and not that easy to counter (i hope so).

But such changes wont make him a really good pick like Irelia, Jarvan or Udyr.


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Crusalis

Senior Member

07-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
At the end of Tryndamere's ult, it heals you to 5% (number? maybe 3%?), so if you time your Bloodlust right you will still survive.

A few other notes that may be applicable: for the laning phase, you max a Fury bar after 7 hits instead of 8, and you will gain Fury even if you fail to last hit a minion. Plus since Fury generates crit, your expected number of hits to max your bar goes down with every subsequent hit. For jungling, it's much more reliable and fast to max your bar, and I hope you guys give jungle Tryndamere a try. Additionally, you can now Mocking Shout while using Spinning Slash. I know people are bagging on the free Mocking Shout and Spinning Slash, but it makes a bigger difference than it seems; the health costs are somewhat low but it adds up quickly with any other damage taken. Combined with the increased Fury generation, laning is not so bad

The one thing we are a little concerned about is Spinning Slash. In earlier iterations it had a lower cooldown (11/10/9/8/7) which is why you see the lower damage number. We might need to adjust that slightly. We are going to monitor him closely, as a champion with such wild swings and extreme highs and lows is difficult to balance.

The last thing I want to talk about is the goal. I have heard several people in the thread say "Riot said they were going to buff Tryndamere." That was not necessarily the goal; the goal was to make Tryndamere more viable in high ELO. This is not the same as buffing Tryndamere, because Tryndamere already stomps all over lower ELO. If we want to make him viable at high ELO without making him worse for other players, we need to be careful about how we make him viable. He can only probably be viable as a solo top or a jungle, depending on which comp he's played in, so we focused our efforts there. In essence we wanted to trim up his usability and help him succeed at roles he can be viable at in high ELO.

It is hard to quantify some of the small tweaks that we put on him versus the obvious nerfs that you see (the numbers). Like similar champions we've reworked in the past, the rework looks worse on paper than it actually is. I'm not saying he's in a perfect spot, but I'm saying he's certainly better than the outcry on this thread suggests.
Guinsoo, I can solve your problem very easily.

The reason Tryndamere isn't popular by high ELO is not the fact that he needs a change to his mechanics.

So long as IGNITE, his main counter, is picked by a single person, let alone two or three, he will always be easy to kill. Always. It is the perfect counter to Tryndamere and every single person on the enemy team can pick it. Especially in ranked, where people can see who you pick. Ignite kills Tryndamere every single time, and now that he will only be healing for 300 (150 with ignite), his chances of survival are cut even slimmer for anybody who knows how to time an ignite. He may run before ignite can kill him, but it means that he won't be in the battle because he knows he will die.

QSS removes ignite, yes. So now it's almost a necessity for surviving ignites, something he may need to rush early, taking away from his damage output, which was nerfed anyways with the removal of crit damage and the huge nerf to his Spinning Slash.

By 'solve', I meant 'make it clear that Tryndamere will never be viable in high ELO'. You can't solve it because balancing summoner spells around one champion is not possible.


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Rize Up Rev

Senior Member

07-26-2011

inb4 two weeks from now everyone but the people in this thread posting op threads about tryn..... high elo players need not apply


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OmegaB

Senior Member

07-26-2011

Bump, just revert trynd.


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LordTrox

Junior Member

07-26-2011

After seeing the numbers it sounds like a plain nerf to me..

Sure, there are some nice buffs aswell, but I don't think they can make up for the nerfs.

But I guess we'll just have to test it..