2k ELO tryn: @Morello & @RIOT: why NERF tryn?

First Riot Post
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MG z3rg3m3ow

Senior Member

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deeve View Post
It's fun to hear the opinions of high ELO players, so tyvm for the response. My opinion comes as a casual gamer and feeling him become more mellow in the uncompetitive setting. A lot of more casual players complained about Tryn before the nerf so a lot of people seem to think he thrived at that level. I can tell you (and show you http://www.riotstats.com/versions/1-36-18 look at any other version for different time period) that for the longest time he has won almost exactly half the games he played in. You don't get any more balanced than that. It's pretty clear he wasn't OP, even in average skill level games (where he was picked more often), before the patch.

Also, is it just me? or does it seem like every time a dev uses the term "evening out damage" or making it more consistent, that this actually means "reducing damage" and making it more consistent.
Very nice post and very nice link. This is the type of feedback we need, whether it's for me or against me. You actually did research and provided good points.


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Tonerboast

Senior Member

07-28-2011

bump


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EU Nezumiiro

Senior Member

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epic Russia View Post
He is no longer the ultimate champion.
He never was...


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Giltia Zero

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Senior Member

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
You underestimate the power of +35% crit chance at full health and free Spinning Slash + Mocking Shout. And healing with zero Fury.

Seriously. Try before you whine.

Tryndamere no longer has crit damage as a stat. Forget his old passive and old Q. Now read the patch notes for the passive and Q.
Those 25 health costs on his two self damage abilities. Oooh, careful other team, I might kill myself.

Phreak, I honestly wonder about you sometimes. I know the rest of Riot games is mostly pretty bad at the game, but you've shown yourself to at least be competent, even GOOD at the game. So why is it that you of all people think Tryndamere wasn't massively nerfed?

First off, Bloodlust.

It now takes longer to stack it, and it heals less. 100 less base heal at max may not seem like much, but when your standard teamfight strategy usually involves you being at 1 hitpoint, Ignite is a fearsome enemy.

It could guarantee a Trynd kill BEFORE the nerf with proper timing, so long as he didn't have a pocket healer. And with most heals having a decently long cooldown, that's not at all a sure thing.

With 100 less health on full Fury heal? Ignite requires less timing to guarantee that kill.

This is a VERY important factor in Tryndamere remaining unviable in any game. You've taken a character with huge, gaping flaws and weaknesses, and enforced those weaknesses by making him even more susceptible to being killed by a summoner spell that anyone can take.

In exchange for what? An extra 20 AD at 1 health? Well that would be nice if he hadn't LOST 36% bonus crit damage. I don't think we're exactly breaking even here, Phreak.

Second, critchance. Pre-nerf, Trynd could have a total of 50% bonus critchance at 1 health. Now, 35% at full Fury is nice, but that's still a net loss of 15% crit chance. Not as significant as the other nerfs, definitely, but you see how this is all starting to add up, Phreak? One small tweak may not make a difference but you can make a pretty big pile stacking them on top of one another.

And then I guess a few might argue that Spinning Slash is slightly weaker due to higher base armor and whatnot but I haven't crunched any numbers on it myself.

The point is that Bloodlust and Battlefury alone were undeniably nerfed into the tarmac, and just like the Fiddlesticks nerfs, you're trying to justify it. Nothing disappoints me more than when you shamelessly pander to bad players who cry for nerfs, and then try to justify yourselves.

We were told there would BE no nerfs. That the only change would be to make Bloodlusts run off of Fury instead of the passive bar stacks. We accepted this. It would have given him more solidarity in lane. But what we got was a slew of nerfs.

Do you see why we're unhappy? Or are you going to keep treating us like we're idiots?


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Foojackin

Senior Member

07-28-2011

Bump


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MG z3rg3m3ow

Senior Member

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giltia Zero View Post
Those 25 health costs on his two self damage abilities. Oooh, careful other team, I might kill myself.

Phreak, I honestly wonder about you sometimes. I know the rest of Riot games is mostly pretty bad at the game, but you've shown yourself to at least be competent, even GOOD at the game. So why is it that you of all people think Tryndamere wasn't massively nerfed?

First off, Bloodlust.

It now takes longer to stack it, and it heals less. 100 less base heal at max may not seem like much, but when your standard teamfight strategy usually involves you being at 1 hitpoint, Ignite is a fearsome enemy.

It could guarantee a Trynd kill BEFORE the nerf with proper timing, so long as he didn't have a pocket healer. And with most heals having a decently long cooldown, that's not at all a sure thing.

With 100 less health on full Fury heal? Ignite requires less timing to guarantee that kill.

This is a VERY important factor in Tryndamere remaining unviable in any game. You've taken a character with huge, gaping flaws and weaknesses, and enforced those weaknesses by making him even more susceptible to being killed by a summoner spell that anyone can take.

In exchange for what? An extra 20 AD at 1 health? Well that would be nice if he hadn't LOST 36% bonus crit damage. I don't think we're exactly breaking even here, Phreak.

Second, critchance. Pre-nerf, Trynd could have a total of 50% bonus critchance at 1 health. Now, 35% at full Fury is nice, but that's still a net loss of 15% crit chance. Not as significant as the other nerfs, definitely, but you see how this is all starting to add up, Phreak? One small tweak may not make a difference but you can make a pretty big pile stacking them on top of one another.

And then I guess a few might argue that Spinning Slash is slightly weaker due to higher base armor and whatnot but I haven't crunched any numbers on it myself.

The point is that Bloodlust and Battlefury alone were undeniably nerfed into the tarmac, and just like the Fiddlesticks nerfs, you're trying to justify it. Nothing disappoints me more than when you shamelessly pander to bad players who cry for nerfs, and then try to justify yourselves.

We were told there would BE no nerfs. That the only change would be to make Bloodlusts run off of Fury instead of the passive bar stacks. We accepted this. It would have given him more solidarity in lane. But what we got was a slew of nerfs.

Do you see why we're unhappy? Or are you going to keep treating us like we're idiots?
Seriously. These nerfs are OBVIOUS. And He still hasn't apologized to me about the way he responded >_> I've even tried talking to him in other posts that he's constantly reading through and responding to. He just ignores me. Way to go, real mature from a RIOT employee.


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j newera

Senior Member

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by z3rg3m3n View Post
Seriously. These nerfs are OBVIOUS. And He still hasn't apologized to me about the way he responded >_> I've even tried talking to him in other posts that he's constantly reading through and responding to. He just ignores me. Way to go, real mature from a RIOT employee.
try before you whine


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Fall By Numbers

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Recruiter

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giltia Zero View Post
Those 25 health costs on his two self damage abilities. Oooh, careful other team, I might kill myself.

Phreak, I honestly wonder about you sometimes. I know the rest of Riot games is mostly pretty bad at the game, but you've shown yourself to at least be competent, even GOOD at the game. So why is it that you of all people think Tryndamere wasn't massively nerfed?

First off, Bloodlust.

It now takes longer to stack it, and it heals less. 100 less base heal at max may not seem like much, but when your standard teamfight strategy usually involves you being at 1 hitpoint, Ignite is a fearsome enemy.

It could guarantee a Trynd kill BEFORE the nerf with proper timing, so long as he didn't have a pocket healer. And with most heals having a decently long cooldown, that's not at all a sure thing.

With 100 less health on full Fury heal? Ignite requires less timing to guarantee that kill.

This is a VERY important factor in Tryndamere remaining unviable in any game. You've taken a character with huge, gaping flaws and weaknesses, and enforced those weaknesses by making him even more susceptible to being killed by a summoner spell that anyone can take.

In exchange for what? An extra 20 AD at 1 health? Well that would be nice if he hadn't LOST 36% bonus crit damage. I don't think we're exactly breaking even here, Phreak.

Second, critchance. Pre-nerf, Trynd could have a total of 50% bonus critchance at 1 health. Now, 35% at full Fury is nice, but that's still a net loss of 15% crit chance. Not as significant as the other nerfs, definitely, but you see how this is all starting to add up, Phreak? One small tweak may not make a difference but you can make a pretty big pile stacking them on top of one another.

And then I guess a few might argue that Spinning Slash is slightly weaker due to higher base armor and whatnot but I haven't crunched any numbers on it myself.

The point is that Bloodlust and Battlefury alone were undeniably nerfed into the tarmac, and just like the Fiddlesticks nerfs, you're trying to justify it. Nothing disappoints me more than when you shamelessly pander to bad players who cry for nerfs, and then try to justify yourselves.

We were told there would BE no nerfs. That the only change would be to make Bloodlusts run off of Fury instead of the passive bar stacks. We accepted this. It would have given him more solidarity in lane. But what we got was a slew of nerfs.

Do you see why we're unhappy? Or are you going to keep treating us like we're idiots?
Well spoken, couldn't have said it better myself.


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wale

Senior Member

07-28-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by JungleAmumu View Post
try before you whine
try before you whine


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Giltia Zero

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Senior Member

07-28-2011

As far as I know, the only Riot staff member who's ever admitted he's wrong, was Guinsoo when he nerfed Morde to scrap.

While I don't particularly trust him as a game designer, all of my respect for being a man about his mistakes.

The rest? As far as I can tell their only concern is making money at this point. Nerf pubstomp champions to keep baddies playing and spending money.