What's all the fuss about Riot's MM system?

First Riot Post
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Fireseal

Senior Member

03-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Right Stuff View Post
At just around the 30 min mark, my fiddles and twitch dc. The fate on my team said they were his brothers and the power in their house went out.
That sucks, but it's hardly a matchmaking fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Right Stuff View Post
LOL. bro im 20-10, and am better than most people I play. I have no doubt I will well above 50/50 win loss when ive gotten 300+ games logged. I am pissed right now that I am at an immediate disadvantage from runes and masteries
If you're better than most people you play, even without the runes and masteries, then matchmaking is doing it's job. I beat level 30s on a level 13 account regularly myself; the player's skill is far more important than the level advantage, and not taking that into account would be a bigger MM failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrax View Post
yet, riot keeps mocking the community by claiming it's working as intended or - even worse - want even more proof or "additional" data.
And? The more data, the better chance they have of addressing the issues. The signal to noise ratio on matchmaking has got to be astoundingly bad--I can hardly blame them for being cautious in adjusting it or digging for as much data as they can.

Your point that arranged team matchmaking is awful is a valid one, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhitemageofDOOM View Post
Allow me to remind you what takes about 5 seconds worth of thought to realize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhitemageofDOOM View Post
*Head desk*
ok two things
^^
The fact that these posts were downvoted goes to show the biggest problem with matchmaking is the community dealing with it.


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Turlagh

Member

03-22-2010

It seems many lower level players don't realize that not everyone has played DotA for years. I never heard of DotA or LoL until a week ago. Even if the lower level players are matched together there is a BIG difference in experience levels.


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Necrax

Senior Member

03-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireseal View Post
And? The more data, the better chance they have of addressing the issues. The signal to noise ratio on matchmaking has got to be astoundingly bad--I can hardly blame them for being cautious in adjusting it or digging for as much data as they can.

Your point that arranged team matchmaking is awful is a valid one, though.
you are right basically. but i feel that most of the common MM QQ threads are originally caused by some arranged team setups and there are literally hundreds of posts/screenshots in zileas' MM fail thread. and this is only 1 of literally hundreds of MM fail threads. i really can't imagine (anymore) what riot's waiting for in regards to this issue. this is not asking for a major MM change, it's asking for adjusting MM in how it treats partial premades.

if 2 people premake you can't just take their average Elo and adjust the rest of the team(s) according to this value...and even worse, this average value seems to be artifically lowered in addition. this is just an assumption of course but it feels like this:

player 1: 1000 Elo
player 2: 500 Elo
===============
averages to: 750 average Elo -> now the system adds an arbitrary value because partial premades are potentially god **** overpowerd, lets say 100% which leads to a base value of 1500 for each AT member.

this means under normal circumstances, and on average, finding 3 teammates with an Elo of around 750 is sufficient

now instead of finding team members to add up to the average value of 750 MM tries to compensate the adjusted Elo value of 1500 with low Elo players to make sure the average Elo of the team is still 750.

so members with an average Elo of roughly 250 each are added to the team to even out to a total average of 750 again. the AT guys are treated as 1500 each because they are premade. if the opposing team has no AT included your team will now face players with roughly 750 Elo each. exciting.

it's probably not like that, but it feels as if - which sux no matter on which side you find yourself.


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Andromansis

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Senior Member

03-22-2010

ELO rating systems are used in soccer as well.
I do agree that "newbie island" should be more of a literal thing, as I believe that matches should be segregated by rune tiers. But without a lot of data available to me from database queries and spreadsheets, I couldn't say this wouldn't adversely affect a lot of people's gameplay experiences by resulting in unreasonably long queue times.
Level 30s don't have THAT big of an advantage over a level 21-29 as was posted earlier in this thread, but somebody with 400 wins vs. somebody with 15 wins breaks down a bit differently. Armor pen runes are a good example of this. a level 30 player can effectively reduce ANY champions base armor to 0 at level 1 with a full set of 9 armor pen marks. Sure, things like masteries and runes help, but a lot of people don't take the tanky masteries or the tanky runes.

That being said, if you're 20 and 10, then you've had 66.66% good matches that were in your favor.
If you honestly expected to walk in and have a 100% win ratio, then you're out your god ****ed mind.

If you don't like the randomness of matchmaking, and you're getting paired against level 30s anyway, there is an arranged team button when you click to queue.


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Phantom Wind

Senior Member

03-22-2010

@OP last sentence/question

Play more or less 200 games. I think it is possible that by then you would probably have a 50/50 win/lose ratio and probably more or less level 20.

After attaining that then you will start having better games. Well as you approach level 20 things slowly become better.


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The Right Stuff

Member

03-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Wind View Post
@OP last sentence/question

Play more or less 200 games. I think it is possible that by then you would probably have a 50/50 win/lose ratio and probably more or less level 20.

After attaining that then you will start having better games. Well as you approach level 20 things slowly become better.
I promise I will not. I'll keep you updated. I feel bad for whoever I will play against at lvl 30 with all my runes.


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Kung Fu English

Senior Member

03-22-2010

QQ moar

you are 20-10, and your first 3 games were against newbies.

So that makes you 17-10 against ALL level 30s as you so vehemently claimed.

That is much greater than a 50/50 record, so therefore you are apparently really epic and should be playing against better level 30s than you already are.

That's the point.

Now if you were 10-17 against all level 30s then you could complain but then again your ELO would have dropped and you wouldn't be in this situation now would you.

Edit: Now I'm not saying the MM system is perfect, especially with regards to character selection and partial premades. But the holes in your argument are glaring.


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INRIhab

Senior Member

03-22-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Wind View Post
@OP last sentence/question

Play more or less 200 games. I think it is possible that by then you would probably have a 50/50 win/lose ratio and probably more or less level 20.

After attaining that then you will start having better games. Well as you approach level 20 things slowly become better.

Way to give him false hope LOL!


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ODonnell

Senior Member

03-22-2010

The matchmaking system works, the level system / ip system is fail. However, to be honest masteries wont make a bad player beat a good player, its mostly psychological. I have had many friends go through this same aggravation and yes its very annoying but no its not insurmountable.


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verit4s

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Member

03-22-2010

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Originally Posted by The Right Stuff View Post
Hey guys, I am new I just started 3 days ago. I heard about this game through some DOTA friends, and decided to check it out. I won't lie, I was a very good DOTA player, and picked up this game very quickly. I just want to see why you guys have issues with this MM system. So far I feel this system rocks.

Let's check out some of the things that have happened so far.

1. I won my first two games and was playing all lvl 30's on my 3rd game. I was naturally wtfpwned with no runes/masteries/or any idea of what these nonfree characters could do.

2. 98% of my games since the 3rd one has been ALL lvl 30's. I am constantly at a disadvantage, and it just flat out is not fun.

3. Tonight I played my 28th, 29th , and 30th games. The 28th was all 30s, and somehow the 30s on my team go 1/10, 3/8, and 2/9. We obviously lose. My 29th game worked the same way as my 28th game. And my 30th game, I soloed Ashe and went 10/2 once again against all lvl 30's. We lost, but not because of the same reason as before. Check number 4 for the reason.

4. In my 30th game, my team took about a 20 to 8 lead in kills, and were just straight owning. At just around the 30 min mark, my fiddles and twitch dc. The fate on my team said they were his brothers and the power in their house went out. No problem I thought because I was already at 20 stacks leviathan/occult, so I will just grab their items and we'll finish up. The strat was to ace them on their push and they push back. Unfortunately, we can't get our leavers items, nor do we get any extra gold or xp or dmg or anything. It flat our blows my mind. So they baron, annie aoe stuns, shaco exhausts, and everyone else cleans us up. They plow all the way through nexus in one blow.

SO. My new question is this. WHAT THE **** WAS RIOT THINKING MAKING THIS FAIL MM SYSTEM?

I mean seriously. Can't win a few games without going against 30's, no leaver bonus, and just bad game pairings in general. What does a man need to do to find a decent game these days
So the problem you seem to have is that your long experience as a dota player gives you an edge (aka makes you more skilled) in games against people with similarly low level accounts. Seems like the ELO system is working correctly so far in assessing your skill to be higher than other people of your level.

However, your ELO rose too much and began to match those of high level players you began being matched against them. Because these people have had so much more experience playing this game, and have knowledge of heros because of their knowledge, and runes/masteries because of their level, you naturally lose. Of course better summoner skills, full rune pages, and 30 mastery points offers a sizeable advantage. Your previous dota skill carried you to this level of skill, but now you start losing against these better equipped people. ELO back down. It does not seem like MM has failed here either.

I will concede though that until you also have all your masteries and runes ELO cannot be said to validly measure *skill*. However, knowledge of each character's respective abilities is required to win in this game just like it was in dota, and if your ELO is being lowered as a result of losses because of your lack of knowledge in this respect, then the system is still functioning as it should.

I started playing this game only recently too after playing DoTa religiously and encountered the exact same phenomenon as you. It is pretty hilarious because there are a lot of people who obviously have no skill and after the game I see they are level 30. Fortunately there are only 40 something (i think?) heros and after you play them once you get a pretty decent idea of what to watch out for. Not being able to pubstomp all the time might suck but you don't get better from nomnomnom nubs all day long. Personally I did not spend any IP until I hit lv20 so I could get a better sense of this game and see how heros stack up to each other, and to save IP not buying tier 1 and 2 runes. Also when I looked at the runes I realized that playing well would serve me much better in a game than the passive bonuses runes offer. As a fellow dota player I'm sure you understand this too - a lot of times fights comes down to one hit. An inferior player can be carried by his runes, so for now you just have to capitalize on the fact that you played a way harder version of this game for so long and take satisfaction out of outplaying people who depend on their passive bonuses.