Is Kiting a legit tactic?

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Eambo

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Senior Member

01-26-2010

Hi everyone. This is more of a discussion than a question, but there is a question in it too.

My biggest frustration (apart from Twitch currently dominating games) is the 'hit and run' tactic. Attacking an enemy outside their range then constantly running away, it gets impossible to stop them depending on who you are using.

I was wondering if kiting is a legit tactic, or if others, like myself, consider it 'cheap'.

I can understand how it could be seen as 'strategic' by some, however I find that with these kind of people I'm spending 90% of my time running after them, 5% running from their turrets when they get to them, and 5% actually fighting them. Most notably was the 'bomb and run', where they plant the bomb over you and run. VERY frustrating.

I've been thinking to myself while playing 'there should be a penalty for turning tail'. Personally I feel that when you are engaged in combat, there should be a slowing effect if you turn to run. If you can hit someone and run before they get a hit on you, you're not engaged in combat, so the slow shouldn't affect there.

The scenarios I'm thinking of is that you try to do a cheap kite shot, and someone manages to engage you. This is the part where the ranged characters turn tail. I feel that in this scenario, you should have the advantage since you've managed to engage them. Thus they should either:
A) Receive a damage bonus for having their back to the enemy
B) Receive a speed penalty for running from the battle.

Obviously there would be a lot of tweaking involved in this, however I hope you can see the general idea I have.

I'm actually thinking in terms of games like Dawn of War II, the system they use where when under fire you can be 'supressed' and slowed. Something like that should happen when you run, whether it be for a certain amount of time (3 seconds?) or for a certain range (500m within the range of the enemy, for example)

I know a lot of people who use the kiting tactic might get quite frustrated by this, however I feel it adds a whole new dimension strategy wise - it adds slightly more teamwork to the game. Instead of ranged chars being able to solo at a range, they would require the backup of a melee character to try and assure they don't get slowed and wasted.

Opinions? Suggestions? I'd like to see other peoples thoughts on the kiting tactic, whether they think it's legit or cheap, and whether they can see my 'proposed' system working.

No flaming or hating please, it's just a discussion =-)


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ctidesm

Senior Member

01-26-2010

It's as legit as legit is a legitimate word.


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nicosharp

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Senior Member

01-26-2010

it is frustrating to deal with playing certain melee champs, but it is part of the game. There are items, skills, and summoner abilities to capitalize on when facing champs that can effectively do this. Primarily Ashe and Twitch.

flash
cleanse
ghostwalk
merc treads
quicksilver sash
dodge items and masteries
defensive mastery nimbleness
ranged stun
warden's mail
banshee's veil

I've been killed by many twitches doing the kite walk shot bs late game. So, I feel your pain. It's typically not a issue until late game when the ranged carry can isolate a tank trying to disable them in a hectic team fight, and have items like phage, etc. Considering how quickly the ranged carry can pop, its pretty fair.


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EnderTheXenocide

Junior Member

01-26-2010

Hmmm an interesting idea. I definitely don't think a slow effect would be fair. It means that anyone chasing anyone anywhere gets a free slow? That's an utterly game changing mechanic right there.

But increased damage? Maybe.

Or perhaps, even better would be a simple armor penetration. If you're running from an enemy, leaving your back exposed, it should leave you a little vulnerable. Maybe a like 20% armor reduction? It would be an interesting mechanic to play with, to be sure...


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Eambo

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Senior Member

01-26-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicosharp View Post
it is frustrating to deal with playing certain melee champs, but it is part of the game. There are items, skills, and summoner abilities to capitalize on when facing champs that can effectively do this. Primarily Ashe and Twitch.

flash
cleanse
ghostwalk
merc treads
quicksilver sash
dodge items and masteries
defensive mastery nimbleness
ranged stun
warden's mail
banshee's veil

I've been killed by many twitches doing the kite walk shot bs late game. So, I feel your pain. It's typically not a issue until late game when the ranged carry can isolate a tank trying to disable them in a hectic team fight, and have items like phage, etc. Considering how quickly the ranged carry can pop, its pretty fair.
Thanks for your reply =-) I'll be honest, I'm VERY new to the game, so I may be missing a lot of things (including certain items worth, etc.).

Personally I reallu enjoy playing fiddlesticks, however I tend to get destroyed by ranged units. They hit me, and by the time I finally get my drain locked to them they're out of my range =-P

I'm still learning, so I'll keep in mind the stuff you suggested =-) Thanks!

Edit: To avoid double posting

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderTheXenocide View Post
Hmmm an interesting idea. I definitely don't think a slow effect would be fair. It means that anyone chasing anyone anywhere gets a free slow? That's an utterly game changing mechanic right there.

But increased damage? Maybe.

Or perhaps, even better would be a simple armor penetration. If you're running from an enemy, leaving your back exposed, it should leave you a little vulnerable. Maybe a like 20% armor reduction? It would be an interesting mechanic to play with, to be sure...
=-) Thanks for the response.

I see what you mean. I honestly haven't went into a massive amount of detail in my mind, however there would be means and methods of getting it to work. For example, it only happens if you made the first attack (initiate and run), or only happens when you are a certain distance away when you attack, something similar to that.

The armor penetration is a great idea though. That's essentially what I was thinking when I thought it up, the first rule of war is never turn your back on the enemy. So turning flank should leave your rear shown, leaving you vulnerable. Thanks for the response and suggestion though =-)


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Klazzix

Senior Member

01-26-2010

Kiting & Tristana. You'll be untouchable.

Keep that camera locked.


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Etyn

Senior Member

01-26-2010

There is a subtle difference between players who play for fun and players who play to win.

Those who play to win, do what works. Like KITING.

Those who play for fun create delusional barriers such as "cheap tactics". While nothing to do with the game it's self these tactics create barriers a player will never over come, because they are internal.

I suggest a good read of PTW theory.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

Just to further this.

PTW is really just a branching of "The Art of War" philosophy dealing with conflict.

The Art of War says to attack at the weak point, and defend at the strong.

Defend against the Ranged player by controlling the mob's and tower pushing. Range can not stand toe to toe with melee so early game you should be safe. And if you have mob control you have been out golding the enemy, you should have an item advantage by mid game, and be able to gank by late.

/thoughts


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Sadness Assassin

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Senior Member

01-26-2010

Personally, I consider kiting a perfectly legitimate strategy, mostly because there are numerous counters to it.
-Use flash to close the distance
-Call a gank and let them be ambushed from behind
-Use Phage/Rylai's Scepter/Frozen Hammer to slow the enemy allowing you to catch up
-Use Ghost to speed yourself up or Exhaust to slow them down
-Run into the forest and hide in the brush, ambushing them if they chase

I heartily disagree with you that penalties should be applied. A slow down for running away? That means people fleeing from a team fight might as well kiss themselves goodbye. It discourages retreat and encourages the notion that once you've entered battle there is no running away. Likewise, it puts people who are not built for sustained engagement, such as Sivir and Zilean, at a distinct disadvantage.
An armor reduction, while more fair, still discourages retreat and encourages sustained battles. As well, it makes Shaco's backstabbing abilities redundant and swings the balance of power towards effective chasers, which might ironically be those who so effectively kite you.

Yes, I, too, have been slaughtered by the bomb-and-run and kited to the point that I felt like murder, however, I have also effectively taken down those who kite and have shut down a Zilean by stunning him and attacking him. Although I acknowledge that kiting can be annoying, it also is counter-able. Initiating a penalty for running away would be akin in my mind to penalizing units for stealthing. Though Shaco has escaped me many times by going stealthy and came back to stab me in the back, I know that it is just another strategy and has its own counters. I hope that you are able to find a way to deal with kiting, as I believe it is and will continue to be a viable strategy.

~Sadness Assassin


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MEMEME670

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Senior Member

01-26-2010

First rule of war is to never run away.

Wait...what?

In war, if you had an archer squad, and they had some heavily armored warriors rushing at you, i sure as heck would take a shot, run, take a shot, run, repeat.

Kiting is legit because melee chars end up having an advantage somehow if they can close in.

Trist vs Warwick

Trist has range, knockback with range, a heal debuff, and an increased firing rate skill(i think)

Warwick has melee, lifesteal, a damaging move that takes away % hp and heals 100% to him, Global attack speed buff, and a two second stun that not only does damage but heals him too. (although this is bad, we are assuming no dumb glitches come into play)


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KirbyHero

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Senior Member

01-26-2010

Glad someone has already injected the much needed Sirlin ITT.

Legit tactics are tactics that don't involve hacking, physically obscuring another players ability to interact with the game (not very possible for online games), or violating known rules.

That's my answer to whether Kiting is a legit tactic, of course it is.