[Guide] Sivir the Battle Mistress - A Comprehensive Guide

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FaerellG

Senior Member

01-18-2011

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Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
Is the Chalice really needed? I run mana regen blues, yellows and the mastery and never find mana to be an issue outside of the very early levels, where I simply have to moderate my use of boomerang blade. Considering that while yes, Sivir is a pusher champ, trying to push towers at such a low level is often unwise in the first place (especially if there is an enemy jungler), I can't really see a major benefit to getting it.

By the time I'm at the point where I want to start pushing (somewhere around lvl 8 or so unless I dominated my lane), I don't need any more mana support.

I suppose I can see why you might want to get one, if you laned against say, a Kassadin that was kicking your butt in the lane (though how you'd lose to a low level Kass as Sivir is beyond me...), then maybe the early Chalice would be useful for safer farming and the MR for extra protection against harrass. But other than that...
Some sort of early game mana support is needed. It doesn't have to be chalice. Chalice just happens to be the most cost-effective mana support there is.

If you really want to go the Manamune route, Tear of the Goddess is also sufficient. You can swap out either of them late game for superior damage sources.

You can of course, rely exclusively on Spell Shield for early game, but I find that clever opponents will work around that. My last game, Vlad just refused to target me with spells ever. I blocked one of his transfusions after reading his pattern and he just exclusively targeted minions with that spell from then on. Not until we got into Team fights mid and late game did he try to hurt me again.

I've also laned against Ezreals that have either purposefully or accidentally missed their skill shots that would otherwise be free mana for me just to juke my spell shield up. Not only causing me to waste mana, but to put the spell on cooldown while they hopped in for some quick harass. Fortunately, BB is superior to any harass Ezreal has at level 3-5.


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01-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
Is the Chalice really needed? I run mana regen blues, yellows and the mastery and never find mana to be an issue outside of the very early levels, where I simply have to moderate my use of boomerang blade. Considering that while yes, Sivir is a pusher champ, trying to push towers at such a low level is often unwise in the first place (especially if there is an enemy jungler), I can't really see a major benefit to getting it.

By the time I'm at the point where I want to start pushing (somewhere around lvl 8 or so unless I dominated my lane), I don't need any more mana support.

I suppose I can see why you might want to get one, if you laned against say, a Kassadin that was kicking your butt in the lane (though how you'd lose to a low level Kass as Sivir is beyond me...), then maybe the early Chalice would be useful for safer farming and the MR for extra protection against harrass. But other than that...
First of all, I run dodge seals because dodge synergizes well with Sivir’s passive, and it is a difficult stat to itemize. Only Ninja Tabis have it, and I prefer Berserker Greaves over those, since attack speed is also difficult to itemize.

Second of all, just because you fast cleared the wave of minions does not mean you have to follow it in at early levels. In those early levels it is unlikely for the enemy laner to tank the minions. Instead they will fall back to their turret and let it tank the hits. This gives you several advantage.
- Your minions will do damage to the turret
- Your laning opponent will have to compete with the turret for minion kills
- You have time to leave your lane to shop or jungle

Yes it’s especially useful against AP opponents, but really it’s useful no matter who you lane with, as that unlimited mana pool goes a long way to constantly harassing them.


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

01-18-2011

Quote:
Damage Heavy Squishy Item Progression:
Meki Pendant > Chalice of Harmony > Boots of Speed > B.F. Sword > Berserker Greaves > Blood Thirster > Last Whisper > Blood Thirster > Blood Thirster
Durable DPS Item Progression:
Meki Pendant > Chalice of Harmony > Boots of Speed > B.F. Sword > Berserker Greaves > Warmog’s Armor > Blood Thirster > Last Whisper > Blood Thirster (Or Atma’s Impaler if the enemy is AD heavy)
I would recommend altering the sequence to:
BFS - Warmog - LW - Atma - BT BT BT BT BT.

If you're going with the Atmog build at all, then you should already be concerned about enemy damage output. Picking up the Atma soon after the Warmog will be more effective in the circumstances.

The third legit build is the following:

Manamune - BV - BT - LW - BTx10.

In this case, you predict the necessity (or advantage) of getting a BV in that particular game, and adjust your build accordingly. The Manamune + BV offers a rather solid raw AD on the Manamune.


Also, in any serious game I would recommend starting with a Doran's Blade.


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01-18-2011

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
I would recommend altering the sequence to:
BFS - Warmog - LW - Atma - BT BT BT BT BT.

If you're going with the Atmog build at all, then you should already be concerned about enemy damage output. Picking up the Atma soon after the Warmog will be more effective in the circumstances.

The third legit build is the following:

Manamune - BV - BT - LW - BTx10.

In this case, you predict the necessity (or advantage) of getting a BV in that particular game, and adjust your build accordingly. The Manamune + BV offers a rather solid raw AD on the Manamune.


Also, in any serious game I would recommend starting with a Doran's Blade.
Unless their AD carry is really wrecking you, which shouldn't happen since you'll be behind your tanks AND have a thousand or so more life than them, completing your Blood Thirster so you can start stacking it is generally more important than the defense offered by Atma's. That being said grabbing Atma's after the Warmogs is definitely a viable choice. Grabbing the Blood Thirster first allows you to stack it sooner though.

As for the Manamune build you suggest, I'm not a fan. In most situations where you can't avoid being CCed with just your spell shield and positioning, and you can't survive with just your team's help and Warmog's for tankiness, Banshee's Veil won't help you. On Sivir, Warmog's is the superior defensive item, and she shouldn't really be grabbing more than one of those.

As for the Doran's Blade start, it -is- an option, but generally you don't need it. a 0/21/9 build gives you just 40 life shy of a doran blade, additional armor, damage blocked, and damage reduction. You're just as tanky as the 9/0/21 carry laning against you without the Doran's Blade. If you really feel you need it you should get it, but I find the mana regen and extra potion much more useful.


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Planarian

Member

01-18-2011

Once again, very useful information and a solid build. I've been using something very similar with great success. I keep wanting to point out however that while this is a solid build, it would be very useful for a modified build which does not account for runes (or at least lvl 3 runes for sub 20's or 20-30's without a full rune page) for whom this guide would be the most useful. It's the beginner players who need the help and following this build for a level 1-10 is not as effective. Prioritizing AS and dodge runes makes sense for your build with clarity glyphs + Chalice being enough for regen with a full page of tier 3's but where is the break even point if someone lacks a full rune page? At what point would you use dodge runes in place of more regen... i.e. what's he magic number for base regen from runes for chalice to be "enough"?

A question: Has today's patch affected your build strategy at all?


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EasymodeX

Senior Member

01-18-2011

Quote:
Unless their AD carry is really wrecking you, which shouldn't happen since you'll be behind your tanks AND have a thousand or so more life than them, completing your Blood Thirster so you can start stacking it is generally more important than the defense offered by Atma's.
It's not a matter of their "AD carry" wrecking you. It's a matter of total physical damage output -- tanks like to autoattack, Xinfags like to do lots of AOE physical damage. There's simply lots of random physical damage going around in fights. Combine that with Sivir's relatively short range, and you have a common situation where Armor Is Good.

Given that Armor Is Good in most situations, AND that you are already concerned about enemy damage output (as evidenced by buying a Warmog already), and that you already have a BFS for a basic damage level, then finishing the Atma (which itself will grant around 50+ AD) will usually be your best bet. Note that I listed it after LW (although it could go before).

Quote:
In most situations where you can't avoid being CCed with just your spell shield and positioning, and you can't survive with just your team's help and Warmog's for tankiness, Banshee's Veil won't help you.
On the contrary, the point is that in the situations where it IS more useful to pick up a BV for a double spell block, then Manamune becomes a stronger pick. You seem like you are closing your mind to situations where blocking 2 CCs is more relevant than simply having 500 extra HP.

As a simple example, if the enemy team has an Ashe and Warwick, then they have 2 CCs that can blindside you before you can spell block. This would be a good matchup to consider a BV strategy over Warmog, especially since Warwick will inevitably pick up a Bloodrazor.

Quote:
As for the Doran's Blade start, it -is- an option, but generally you don't need it. a 0/21/9 build gives you just 40 life shy of a doran blade, additional armor, damage blocked, and damage reduction. You're just as tanky as the 9/0/21 carry laning against you without the Doran's Blade.
Except the person laning against you is a 11-9-10 carry, or 0/9/21 or 0/15/15 or 0/21/9 carry, and they have a Doran's Blade, and they have equal or superior harassment options.

Quote:
If you really feel you need it you should get it, but I find the mana regen and extra potion much more useful.
On the contrary, if you really really need the Meki pendant, then go ahead. However, if it's Sivir vs. Sivir, the one with a Doran's Blade will win. Essentially, you are underestimating your opponent.


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Senior Member

01-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Planarian View Post
Once again, very useful information and a solid build. I've been using something very similar with great success. I keep wanting to point out however that while this is a solid build, it would be very useful for a modified build which does not account for runes (or at least lvl 3 runes for sub 20's or 20-30's without a full rune page) for whom this guide would be the most useful. It's the beginner players who need the help and following this build for a level 1-10 is not as effective. Prioritizing AS and dodge runes makes sense for your build with clarity glyphs + Chalice being enough for regen with a full page of tier 3's but where is the break even point if someone lacks a full rune page? At what point would you use dodge runes in place of more regen... i.e. what's he magic number for base regen from runes for chalice to be "enough"?

A question: Has today's patch affected your build strategy at all?
Before level 20 I'd recommend just having a general mana regen everything rune page for all your mana using chapmions. After all, that's when you are least adept at managing mana, and when you have fewer masteries to support it.

As for the Sivir nerfs, I don't think they'll hit her that hard. The Boomerang nerf means at level 5 with 300 AD she'll be doing:

300+(300*.75)+(300*.75*.75)+(300*.75*.75*.75)+(300 *.75*.75*.75*.75)+(300*.75*.75*.75*.75*.75)= 986 damage

Instead of

300+(300*.78)+(300*.78*.78)+(300*.78*.78*.78)+(300 *.78*.78*.78*.78)+(300*.78*.78*.78*.78*.78)= 1056 damage

The difference is pretty negligible. Harder to quantify though, is the change in Ricochet's range. It shouldn't make much difference in clearing minion waves, but in team fights the enemy team doesn't have to spread out as much to avoid them.


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01-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
It's not a matter of their "AD carry" wrecking you. It's a matter of total physical damage output -- tanks like to autoattack, Xinfags like to do lots of AOE physical damage. There's simply lots of random physical damage going around in fights. Combine that with Sivir's relatively short range, and you have a common situation where Armor Is Good.
Given that Armor Is Good in most situations, AND that you are already concerned about enemy damage output (as evidenced by buying a Warmog already), and that you already have a BFS for a basic damage level, then finishing the Atma (which itself will grant around 50+ AD) will usually be your best bet. Note that I listed it after LW (although it could go before).
Warmog’s Armor and good position is generally enough to keep you safe in team fights where your team protects you well. And when your damage output is huge like Sivir’s, protecting you should be your team’s number one priority in team fights. I am not saying that Atma’s Impaler is a bad item, or that you shouldn’t get it. However, given the choice between completing Blood Thirster for 1350 Gold and beginning to stack it and then spending 2400 on Atmas, or spending 2400 on Atmas, then 1350 on Blood Thirster, then stacking it, Completing the Blood Thirster first gives the damage advantage in more points of the game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
On the contrary, the point is that in the situations where it IS more useful to pick up a BV for a double spell block, then Manamune becomes a stronger pick. You seem like you are closing your mind to situations where blocking 2 CCs is more relevant than simply having 500 extra HP.
As a simple example, if the enemy team has an Ashe and Warwick, then they have 2 CCs that can blindside you before you can spell block. This would be a good matchup to consider a BV strategy over Warmog, especially since Warwick will inevitably pick up a Bloodrazor.
First of all it’s closer to a 1000 HP difference between the Warmog’s Armor and Banshee’s Veil, since Sivir can farm up Warmog’s very quickly. Secondly, I’ve tested both out quite extensively, and Warmog’s Armor gives more survivability even against CC heavy teams. In all team fights you should be positioned in such a way that landing CCs on you is difficult or even impossible. That alone should limit the CCs that head towards you to 1 or 2, which you can usually see coming and Spell Shield. Aside from that, it’s better to build your damage up sooner and rely on your teammates to defend you when you take team fight focus.
Ashe’s arrow should never hit you during a team fight because you should always be behind someone, and because it’s relatively slow and easy to spell block. If you’re relatively close to your team and Warwick ults you, that alone won’t kill you. It won’t even really do that much damage if you’ve already got Warmog’s Armor (Since you have about 66 MR just from your base stats and chalice), and it will put him in position to get eaten by your team. The situation you described where Ashe blindsides you with her Crystal Arrow and then Warwick Ults you to keep you permastunned assumes a 1v2 fight. If you’re your team’s hard carry you shouldn’t be involved in many 1v2 fights like that, especially since you have no form of CC yourself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Except the person laning against you is a 11-9-10 carry, or 0/9/21 or 0/15/15 or 0/21/9 carry, and they have a Doran's Blade, and they have equal or superior harassment options.
On the contrary, if you really really need the Meki pendant, then go ahead. However, if it's Sivir vs. Sivir, the one with a Doran's Blade will win. Essentially, you are underestimating your opponent.
The extra health potion alone is worth a 200 HP lead on your opponent. Unless that enemy Sivir is bursting you down from 400 life at level 3 (Since if you follow my build exactly you open with 560 HP), you are not going to be driven out of your lane very easily just because the enemy has a Doran’s Blade. Furthermore, you can complete your Chalice + Boots 1 at 850 gold, where as they’ll need to wait an extra 400 gold, meaning from level 4 or 5 on you’ll have the advantage, especially since Chalice has magic resist and Boomerang does magic damage.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

01-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
On the contrary, if you really really need the Meki pendant, then go ahead. However, if it's Sivir vs. Sivir, the one with a Doran's Blade will win. Essentially, you are underestimating your opponent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominatius Maxim View Post
The extra health potion alone is worth a 200 HP lead on your opponent. Unless that enemy Sivir is bursting you down from 400 life at level 3 (Since if you follow my build exactly you open with 560 HP), you are not going to be driven out of your lane very easily just because the enemy has a Doran’s Blade. Furthermore, you can complete your Chalice + Boots 1 at 850 gold, where as they’ll need to wait an extra 400 gold, meaning from level 4 or 5 on you’ll have the advantage, especially since Chalice has magic resist and Boomerang does magic damage.
Actually, I think Easymode is overestimating the life-gain from Doran's. Unless there's a tremendous skill differential, the 2 health potions should be sufficient to keep you in lane while you farm up a chalice and enough for a Vamp Scepter and teleport back. I mean...3% life steal is sorta negligible when you're only hitting for 60ish damage. That's what? 1 or 2 hp per auto attack at this stage of the game?

I really don't see how you cay say that Doran's blade is superior to having 2 health pots.


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Senior Member

01-18-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaerellG View Post
Actually, I think Easymode is overestimating the life-gain from Doran's. Unless there's a tremendous skill differential, the 2 health potions should be sufficient to keep you in lane while you farm up a chalice and enough for a Vamp Scepter and teleport back. I mean...3% life steal is sorta negligible when you're only hitting for 60ish damage. That's what? 1 or 2 hp per auto attack at this stage of the game?

I really don't see how you cay say that Doran's blade is superior to having 2 health pots.
This is another really good way to look at it.