Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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Takalah

Senior Member

12-07-2010

So how exactly does Karthus's ult not fit into the realm of anti-fun?

Seriously, it can't even be much fun for those doing it, it takes zero skill.


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Tarvaloth

Junior Member

12-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by S1AL View Post
Zileas, I must say that I strongly disagree with your opinion on what is "fun."...
You know what I don't like? Tryndamere. Tryndamere is anti-fun. He is not complex, he is not interesting, and he's a favorite with noobs. Why? Because in the late-game you get to 3/4-shot anyone with 2400 hp or less, he's easy as Hell to play, and you can beat a better player by right-clicking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takalah View Post
So how exactly does Karthus's ult not fit into the realm of anti-fun?

Seriously, it can't even be much fun for those doing it, it takes zero skill.

I don't have a problem with either of these abilities because both situations are manageable with experience and skill. You know how Trynd plays, he comes in, tries to do dmg, ultis, more dmg, spin out and run. There are plenty of slows, stuns, knockups, or exhaust to kite him around a bit. The hard part is getting people to fight him, force him to use his ult and then try to run away. He'll either get you and your team can finish him, or he'll spin and run before his ult completely runs out.

With Karthus' ult you have to be aware that you can't 'live on the edge' as much with him on the field. I mostly play Karthus and I can tell you that good players will almost never fall to my ultimate. They make sure before they commit to a kill that the fight won't be close enough for Karth's ult to finish them off. Plus there are a great deal of champs with shields or even an item or two you can get to nullify it.

A lot of times it just takes awareness of what is going on and not get yourself in a bad situation.


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Rydog

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Recruiter

12-07-2010

Power Without Gameplay: Teemo's Toxic Shot; Cardmaster's Stacked Deck; other passive skills

Burden of Knowledge: Poppy's Diplomatic Immunity... kind of a stretch since it's clear once you read the tooltip

Unclear Optimization: Malzahar's Call of the Void

Use Pattern Mis-matches Surrounding Gameplay: Kennen's Lightning Rush; Kayle's auto-attack; Gangplank in general

Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun: Twitch's Spray and Pray; other excessive burst AoE damage

Conflicted Purpose: Cho'Gath's Feast (dying, then choosing to build your HP on creeps vs. saving it for champions)

Anti-Combo: Tristana's Buster Shot, sort of? That's a stretch...

False Choice -- Deceptive Wrong Choice: Shaco's Hallucinate (kind of a stretch though)

False Choice -- Ineffective Choice: Tryndamere's Mocking Shout and general gameplay definitely forces opponents into picking from multiple equally poor choices

Or We Could **** the Player!!1111oneoneone: Karthus' Requiem (especially since the Cleanse nerf); the suppression mechanic

Non-Reliability: Cho'Gath's Feast; Gangplank's Parrrley and Cannon Barrage (big time); stealth in general


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Jaawn

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Senior Member

12-07-2010

i dunno why people downvoted you, Rydog ... I wish they would post a reply...

I agree with most of what you said


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Takalah

Senior Member

12-08-2010

zeus' ult has always been one of no skill. any ult you can respawn with off cd and use to get a kill(s) with is anti-fun. I'm not even gonna debate it.

ZERO SKILL = Karthus ult.


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Jaawn

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Senior Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarvaloth View Post
I don't have a problem with either of these abilities because both situations are manageable with experience and skill. You know how Trynd plays, he comes in, tries to do dmg, ultis, more dmg, spin out and run. There are plenty of slows, stuns, knockups, or exhaust to kite him around a bit. The hard part is getting people to fight him, force him to use his ult and then try to run away. He'll either get you and your team can finish him, or he'll spin and run before his ult completely runs out.
Trynd is less of an issue than karthus, but he still does make you choose between bad choices. Even if a way around it exists, I think the issue is that the way around it is too rare. With Trynd, just having CC is not enough...you need a certain amount of CC to counter his rinse and repeat system. For example, Mundo can slow with his cleaver on a short cooldown AND his ult increases his speed more than ghost does, but if you cleaver trynd and ult you still won't catch him most of the time, especially because he can spin through walls. I think changing his spin so he can't go through any walls would almost completely fix any issues with him. He should be able to ult and do a bunch of damage and then spin out and live...but not if he is alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarvaloth View Post
With Karthus' ult you have to be aware that you can't 'live on the edge' as much with him on the field. I mostly play Karthus and I can tell you that good players will almost never fall to my ultimate. They make sure before they commit to a kill that the fight won't be close enough for Karth's ult to finish them off. Plus there are a great deal of champs with shields or even an item or two you can get to nullify it.

A lot of times it just takes awareness of what is going on and not get yourself in a bad situation.
The reason why this is still not okay is right within what you said. Just having karthus on a team forces the ENTIRE other team to have to play differently, they have to keep enough hp to not die to his ult, or not gank anyone until just after a karthus ult... but if they are doing well at keeping their health up then Karthus will just keep saving his ult... This is an unreliability AND burden of knowledge problem because it is near impossible to calculate how much HP you need to have at a given moment based on your MR and his MPen AND exactly when it will be off cooldown. It is a gamble to cope with karthus so a WHOLE TEAM constantly has to over compensate for it, or die a lot. That is way too much effect coming from a single champion. No other champion comes close to this. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that Karthus is OP or whatever, but his ult is irrefutably "anti-fun". Unless everyone has a way to counter it by like...level 7-8ish or so, it is anti fun, and if everyone counters it... it is antifun for karthus... so it is just bad.

I never liked Zeus from DoTA either... the ult is too much if it is completely global.

An easy fix would be to give requiem an area that is still really large but not global so it strikes all champions within the area. That would at least make it require more strategy/thinking on the player's part.

Also, if enemy players can see the edge of the area, they can see the red line above them, see a boundary, and be like...aaahhhh have to get outside it!! Definitely more fun that way. It could be like panth's circle or something, just a lot bigger.


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FoxMindedGuy

Senior Member

12-08-2010

When will Flash be removed?


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Layotees

Senior Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxMindedGuy View Post
When will Flash be removed?
Seven seconds after you quit the game.


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serverny

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Senior Member

12-08-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
The passive was supposed to be minor defense, but i agree it's not that useful.
LeBlow's passive is just totally useless as it is. To make it desirable you should fix all bugs mentioned above AND let clone repeat ALL your actions, including casting spells animation (with zero damage, obviously).


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-08-2010
167 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bargaw View Post
What do you think about Sion's shield?
I'm sure it is Conflicted Purpose example. Shield brokes when depletes not dealing damage, so when you use that you DON'T want to get hit. That's 300+ shield value being lost.

In my opinion his shield should still deal damage when broken, reduce shield amount to compensate.
IT's pretty clear. There's a window of timing where you reliably get damage, and you can use its absorption to charge forward. You can game it to give maximum effect then, which is more fun, and doesnt leave you scratching your head about what the optimal use case is. The optimal use case is very clear -- charge in, almost have your shield break, and then do damage. It also gives really good counter-gameplay beacuse opponents can bash it down to stop the damage if they want to focus.