Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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hyliandanny

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Senior Member

12-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
The difficulty is in knowing that your gank WOULD work and that vulnerability does (vs does not) exist. It also comes in getting there without the opponent figuring out you are likely to be ganking them right then.

I think those are harder than hanging out next to a cliff and pressing D, or worse yet, being in the middle of the lane and pressing D.
If I model vulnerability as a function of position and base it on the tower location, we see that a player is more vulnerable the farther they are from the tower, with the highest point of vulnerability being at the enemy tower. Flash just means that a player can immediately place themselves farther away and immediately reduce their vulnerability.

While I agree that using this from mid might indeed be a disappointment to the gankers, there are ways to beat Flash. Stun, silence, and slows make that vulnerability closer to the non-Flash model and execution becomes a more important factor.

Bah, okay. You're right that there's less incentive because of the decreased vulnerability; isolated, you're inarguably right. But the most difficult part of setting up a gank, currently, is asking "Does one of us have CC?" in order to skew the vulnerability of the target -- regardless of Flash, because Flash users are also vulnerable to those disables.

It's my claim that there's added value to gank execution because of the use of Flash by the target. Flash users make themselves more vulnerable (I know I do) because of the skewed vulnerability, but this enables the gankers to view an opportunity. In turn, ganks can be more rewarding and fun when executed successfully.

I guess all that's left to ask is whether or not you'd be willing to reverse your removal of Flash if you find that everyone is acting on the left half of the charts (not making themselves vulnerable). That will still result in no incentivized ganks, methinks.






EDIT: This made me wonder why you guys don't do an increased vulnerability to Flash. Such as, "While Flash is not on cooldown, stuns/slows/etc. done to the champion are 50% more effective." or "Flashing while Blind will make the champion flash to a random location within the Flash range." You know, give more value to the CC factors that are already commonly held as the "gank" tools.


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SuperGinger

Senior Member

12-07-2010

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Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
M


I think that the difficulty of executing a typical flash escape is far lower than the difficulty of executing a proper 2 man gank that will kill you if not for flash. Additionally, flash leads to a much more passive play experience, where players just don't get rewarded for trying to be aggressive in the early and midgame because flash foils it. Is it 'fun' to spend 60 seconds setting up a gank, waiting for the lane to push, and initiating perfectly to have flash nullify the whole thing, and then have you lose a ton of XP and gold while you walk back to your lane?

It also creates a variety of cheesy situations, like riskless dragon attempts for a blue jungler with flash, etc.
i think its fun to gank via tower diving and flashing out of the last tower hit.


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hyliandanny

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12-07-2010

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Originally Posted by SuperGinger View Post
i think its fun to gank via tower diving and flashing out of the last tower hit.
Whoah, now. Don't even get me started on those graphs...

-Danny
when game-design-critical engineers strike!


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Stexe

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12-07-2010

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Originally Posted by The Reaver View Post
But then you wouldn't get anywhere in laning. Farming is important, too, you know, and removing Flash causes people to take more risks in order to farm.
But farming isn't as important as not dying. Considering how many creeps it takes to kill to equal a single Champion kill (in gold and XP given, and amount of gold and XP denied in respawn time), it would be smarter to simply be extremely cautious in extending and farming instead of simply pushing and running away.

While I do agree Flash needs a nerf, specifically in stopping the popping of projectiles, I don't think it needs complete removal. Heck, I would even settle for Flash not being able to go over objects (similar to the old "Dash" suggestion they had).


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Stexe

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12-07-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyliandanny View Post
EDIT: This made me wonder why you guys don't do an increased vulnerability to Flash. Such as, "While Flash is not on cooldown, stuns/slows/etc. done to the champion are 50% more effective." or "Flashing while Blind will make the champion flash to a random location within the Flash range." You know, give more value to the CC factors that are already commonly held as the "gank" tools.
Having a negative on an ability goes against everything that "anti-patterns" is talking about...


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Viro Melchior

Senior Member

12-07-2010

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Originally Posted by Zileas View Post
Well, if you over-incent specific combos, it can make the non-use of the combo a 'false choice', which is not good. I think Anivia borders on this. But weak or moderate incentives allow you to pat yourself on the back for 'playing right' in decent play. I also agree that giving people tools that function better in some scenarios is a good low-complexity way of allowing satisfying play and skill differentiation.
Would you say that Veigar has one of the best 2 spell combos in terms of choice vs false choice?

His AoE stun is strongly useful on it's own.
And Primordial Burst feals pretty awesome if you land it alone.

But if you use them together, the stun can set up burst for easy-hitting.


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Bradders11

Senior Member

12-07-2010

I find kog maw and karthus taking buffs from me after i kill them because of their passives anti-fun...is this being fixed?


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hyliandanny

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12-07-2010

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Originally Posted by Stexe View Post
Having a negative on an ability goes against everything that "anti-patterns" is talking about...
Oh, come now. It does so no more than LeBlanc's control-less, hit-me-to-activate passive.

Which anti-patterns, by the way? Please be clear. It's not confusing: the confusion anti-pattern (I believe Zileas calls it unclear optimization) is not present. Here's how I would defend my idea in a meeting with you and the rest of a team of developers.

- the drawback is clear. It is always bad and meant to incentivize quick, pre-emptive usage of Flash. If it were "CC against you is 50% LESS effective while Flash is not on cooldown", you would have a point here.
- summoner spells, by nature, are an option. That is, no one is forced with this spell as one of their options. Taking it, along with its clear, intended handicap, is a choice that can be avoided at will.
- (the producers would love this one most) going with my idea means less work for the rest of the team. We don't have to rebalance anyone around the removal of Flash anymore, while delivering a solution to our playerbase that benefits both Flash supporters and Flash haters.

I excitedly await your reasons for justifying the removal of Flash as a superior option.

-Danny
fun playing and making games


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-07-2010
159 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperGinger View Post
i think its fun to gank via tower diving and flashing out of the last tower hit.
Well, we like that too. But sadly, flash comes with a lot of other baggage as well.


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Zileas

VP of Game Design

12-07-2010
160 of 282 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viro Melchior View Post
Would you say that Veigar has one of the best 2 spell combos in terms of choice vs false choice?

His AoE stun is strongly useful on it's own.
And Primordial Burst feals pretty awesome if you land it alone.

But if you use them together, the stun can set up burst for easy-hitting.
I think they work correctly, if that is what you are asking... you can use it either way and have a legitimate reason for doing so.